First of all let me say hi, my name is Rob, my wife is Shalini and our dog is a 17 mth female Dobermann. Her Kennel name is Martonburgs Loopy Loo, known to us as Teagan.

Teagan has many 'show' champions in her pedigree, but we have no interest in showing her. She is a pet first and foremost, although she has shown an aptitude for agility. We picked her particular kennels because they have a reputation for have sound temperaments, and as Teagan is primarily a pet as well as our first dog, temperament was extremely important.

We have taken her through puppy class, Intermediate and Intermediate II obedience training and she is due to start her Advanced course.

And here is where I need some advice....

It took us a long time to find trainers we were happy with, who use both rewards and corrections. However, I feel that Teagan is getting bored with Obedience in this format, and there are too many distractions. Another dog joined her group a few weeks ago, and it caused chaos. As soon as it joins the group it starts pulling and getting over-excited. The owner uses a half-check collar, which isn't fitted properly so has no effect. Her dog roars about, especially when let off lead for 'recall' practice, which really sets off the 2 guard breeds in class - Teagan and a Belgian Shepherd.

Shalini finds it really hard to control or correct Teagan, and her level 10 corrections have no effect on her in this state, and also when she meets some other dogs on walks. We think this has been exacerbated by problems in kennels, but that's another story.

We use a half-check in training, and a full check sometimes on walks. Teagan behaves (mostly) on the full check chain, but I don't want to walk her on that forever. She could slip out of it backwards, and constant use will damage her neck.

Teagan generally has a really sweet playful nature, is well-behaved around guests, children, the elderly and strangers and knows I'm pack leader. She's very intelligent and has good prey drive - I'm working on the focus! She's a fantastic dog, but has reached a plateau where I think we're failing her.

I have contacted a Shutzhund club to give her a more 'suited' outlet for her energy and drive and we're going to see them at the weekend. I'm hoping that she'll love a new challenge and enjoy being around more stable similar dogs, rather than manic 'foo-foo' types.

Sorry if I'm rambling, but we have a lot of questions going on in our minds. Basically:

What do we do about her training?

Will different collars help? E-collars are tools of the devil here in the UK, and I don't fancy being hung, drawn and quartered. Prong collars aren't far behind - even the police can't use them.

Will Shutzhund be good for her, if we don't want to do competitions?

I already have the Building Drive dvd, which is excellent.

Where do we go from here?
Any advice and experiences greatly appreciated.

Rob

First of all, welcome!

 Quote: rob bruce

It took us a long time to find trainers we were happy with, who use both rewards and corrections. However, I feel that Teagan is getting bored with Obedience in this format, and there are too many distractions.

I sympathize with this. It's hard to find people you agree with. When you find them, it's hard to let them go!

You say she is "bored"? Can you describe the behavior that makes you think she is bored? A lot of distractions should have the opposite effect of being boring, it should make things more challenging for her.

 Quote:

Another dog joined her group a few weeks ago, and it caused chaos. As soon as it joins the group it starts pulling and getting over-excited. The owner uses a half-check collar, which isn't fitted properly so has no effect. Her dog roars about, especially when let off lead for 'recall' practice, which really sets off the 2 guard breeds in class - Teagan and a Belgian Shepherd.

I'm concerned that your trainer practices recalls off-leash. Why not use a long line? Especially with a dog that is obviously too out of control to be safe? This is a huge red flag for me. This alone would make me question your trainers.

 Quote:

Shalini finds it really hard to control or correct Teagan, and her level 10 corrections have no effect on her in this state, and also when she meets some other dogs on walks. We think this has been exacerbated by problems in kennels, but that's another story.

What does she do when she sees other dogs? Does she seem aggressive? Just really excited to meet them? What's her demeanor?

I believe this is a combination of a pack structure and an equipment issue. Predominantly pack structure, though. She needs to see your wife as a leader. As a pack leader, it should be your wifes job to initiate contact with other packs. Teagan doesn't get to decide that she's going to pull ahead and introduce the pack to other packs, its not her call. Equipment will help your wifes corrections to mean more, but with the proper pack structure it's possible that your wife won't even need to correct at all.

 Quote:

She's very intelligent and has good prey drive - I'm working on the focus! She's a fantastic dog, but has reached a plateau where I think we're failing her.

Sometimes dogs do reach training plateus, and it it can take a while to move on. Sometimes, they lose some commands for a few days, but with consistent training no plateau should last more than a few days. If there's some issue or set of issues that have been going on for longer than a few days, it isn't the dog, it's the training style or methodology used.

In my personal history, it's been over-correcting a dog (Thanks, Koehler/my ignorance) early on which created confusion and panic later. The only remedy was to go completely motivational for several months to get the dog back to liking OB.

 Quote:

I have contacted a Shutzhund club to give her a more 'suited' outlet for her energy and drive and we're going to see them at the weekend. I'm hoping that she'll love a new challenge and enjoy being around more stable similar dogs, rather than manic 'foo-foo' types.

I'm sure they'll be able to help, and it'll probably be very good for her, but I would consider addressing the fact that she doesn't listen to your wife and that her idea of the packs structure is messed up, BEFORE adding a new type of training.

 Quote:

Sorry if I'm rambling, but we have a lot of questions going on in our minds. Basically:

What do we do about her training?

So, tell us a bit more about the plateau that she's at. What are the symptoms? What's her behavior? What does a normal training session look like?

 Quote:

Will different collars help? E-collars are tools of the devil here in the UK, and I don't fancy being hung, drawn and quartered. Prong collars aren't far behind - even the police can't use them.

Yes. You already know that a "check" (or Choke chain, as we call them) can damage her neck. If you're "popping" this chain to correct her, you're already contributing to phsyical harm.

A prong is much more humane AND more effective. Why wouldn't you use this? Is it actually illegal? I have to tell you, the sentiment in the US may not be quite as bad as it is in england towards prongs, but they certainly aren't smiled upon by the general populace here.

However, I have a dog that decided she wanted to bite my hand last night, because she felt a bit uppity. If she had been really pissed and had aggression issues, I could have landed in the hospital. Teagan is the same caliber of animal, and you have no business owning a dog like that if you aren't willing to take some heat from so called "Animal lovers" in order to do what's best for your dog: keep it from being a danger to others, so it can live a long and healthy life.

 Quote:

Will Shutzhund be good for her, if we don't want to do competitions?

Probably. So would Agility, or ringsport, or competitive underwater basket retrieving... I think the thing that is "Good" for dogs is striving. Working with their handler enough to learn and be successful, and the true joy that a handler feels when their dog excels. A sport is just a way of validating and structuring the goals for a relationship with your dog.

 Quote:

I already have the Building Drive dvd, which is excellent.

Where do we go from here?
Any advice and experiences greatly appreciated.

Rob

Hey, you're already doing better than 99.9% of dog owners the world over. You love your dog, you understand that she has problems, and you're trying to help her become as stable and reliable as she can be! Keep asking questions and keep an open mind, you'll be great, and so will Teagan.

-David

Sounds like you have your hands full. I'm not sure what to tell you equipment-wise; I'd be a little lost without having a prong-collar for training or an electric collar for my off-leash stuff; but then again I'm in a position to take their use for granted. A choke collar will do damage, the prong and e-collar won't. Shalini is definitely at a disadvantage having only a check or a half-check collar to dole out a correction. Is there a way to use a prong and cover it so that it won't be obvious? I think if you had a prong collar, you would notice a difference right away since the corrections would be effective. It sounds like your dog gets easily stimulated by distractions, and a check collar correction just isn't going to be enough to get her attention. Damage to her neck from a choke may result from trying. With Dobes, cervical vertebral instability ("wobblers" syndrome), can be the result of too much torque on the dogs neck. It would be preferable to use a collar that has a greater impact but requires much less physical force. I'm not sure what you have available to you besides the check and half-check.

So let's try a different angle: What kind of exercise is your girl getting? A tired Dobe is a much more cooperative and quiet Dobe. I love that you're doing the drive and focus work with her to give her an outlet. Contacting the Shutzhund club was a great idea too. I think you have less of a dog problem based on your post, and more of an equipment problem. Your dog sounds great. I don't think you're failing her at all; you're looking for answers and making good decisions for your dog. Maybe somebody else will have better advice?

If prongs are legal there you could use a cover to hide it. And since they aren't common there most people would have no clue what you were using. I've seen the covers for sale on eBay.
A dominant dog collar would be good insurance in case the prong comes loose.

When I have taken my dog to certain places, and wanted to minimize people noticing I was using a prong, I have just tied a cute bandana over it. It works pretty well, makes him look stylish and cuts back on the dirty looks from foo foo animal lovers.

 Quote: david eagle

First of all, welcome!

I sympathize with this. It's hard to find people you agree with. When you find them, it's hard to let them go!

You say she is "bored"? Can you describe the behavior that makes you think she is bored? A lot of distractions should have the opposite effect of being boring, it should make things more challenging for her.

I'm concerned that your trainer practices recalls off-leash. Why not use a long line? Especially with a dog that is obviously too out of control to be safe? This is a huge red flag for me. This alone would make me question your trainers.

What does she do when she sees other dogs? Does she seem aggressive? Just really excited to meet them? What's her demeanor?

I believe this is a combination of a pack structure and an equipment issue. Predominantly pack structure, though. She needs to see your wife as a leader. As a pack leader, it should be your wifes job to initiate contact with other packs. Teagan doesn't get to decide that she's going to pull ahead and introduce the pack to other packs, its not her call. Equipment will help your wifes corrections to mean more, but with the proper pack structure it's possible that your wife won't even need to correct at all.

So, tell us a bit more about the plateau that she's at. What are the symptoms? What's her behavior? What does a normal training session look like?

A prong is much more humane AND more effective. Why wouldn't you use this? Is it actually illegal? I have to tell you, the sentiment in the US may not be quite as bad as it is in england towards prongs, but they certainly aren't smiled upon by the general populace here.

-David

Thanks for the reply David. Sorry to paraphrase it, but I'll try to cover some of your questions.

Typical training is an hour, it includes walking to heel with about-turns, sits and stays. then the 'weave' around the other dogs sitting at heel in the 'watch' - all on leash. Then there's some recall practice or sit-stay practice. Sometimes there's a new exercise such as learning to 'bed' on a mat. When it's practiced or shown one at a time, the other dogs and handlers sit and watch. This can be a while if the class is full (upto 10 dogs).

Teagan doesn't seem distracted so much as bored, as she looks around for something more interesting. Food and praise will only settle her for so long, and to be honest I get a bit bored waiting too. As soon as its her go or there's something new, she's all focussed and switched on to me and she picks it up really quickly - whereas the others takes ages.
This is why I think she's reached a plateau - she's doing the same thing pretty much week in week out and she's not learning much. I think she's stopped enjoying it as there's not much challenge.

When she approaches other dogs, sometimes she's quiet and interested, sometimes wants to play and sometimes she growls and lunges. This last approach is starting to increase in regularity.

At home she behaves really well, listens to us and enjoys quiet time as well as walks, training and play (Teagan, not the wife )

I think you're right about pack position. There's no doubt I'm No1, but I think Shalini is struggling to reinforce her position. Her corrections are not hard enough for Teagan to take notice anymore using the half check.

As for e-collars.... The UK Kennel club and almost everyone else is lobbying parliament to change the law to get them banned. They tag prongs on the end too. You cannot be a KC affiliated club if you use e-collars, and most won't touch prongs either.
Which means the clubs can't advertise as KC approved, or have the insurance, or do the Awards. So no-one uses them.

We've gone back to basics with Teagan - no toys left out, sitting before petting, eating, doors etc, and this has really helped. She also gets 40mins-1hr walk a day with a back-pack.

The difficulty is the trainers are also our friends. They have known Teagan since we got her and have done a great job so far. They are the best in the area, without a doubt. We just feel that Teagan isn't benefitting from classes anymore.

My gut feeling it to say Bollocks to the uneducated do-gooders and get a prong collar. That way Shalini gets control back that doesn't require brute strength and won't hurt Teagan. She can then re-establish her leadership quickly and easily using basic training (and maybe the Obedience dvd!).
I think one-on-one sessions will be more beneficial than group sessions too, and I'd rather pay for a couple of them than 10 weeks of worrying about what dog will roar about next.

Teagan's our dog and we want what's best for her - if that's a prong collar so be it.

Thanks all for the help - keep it coming!

Rob

I like the idea of covering the prong collar. Maybe that Harley Davidson bandana has found another use!

Oh yeah! She's bored spitless! Who wouldn't be, laying about for an hour, doing nothing? One hour training sessions once a week can be good because you have someone there to critique your handling skills, and they can be good for proofing commands in a highly distracting environment, but I certainly don't think of our weekly 1 hour group OB session as a fun time for Macy.

Macy's fun time is when we do our daily training sessions followed by drive work. And those sessions are 2 - 5 minutes long. If she does a 2 minute sit with distractions right now, I'm satisfied and we go right into drive building "play". She LOVES these training sessions, is totally eager to please and enjoys learning. I don't expect her to love the hour long ones.

I would describe a plateau as a dog getting to a place where she seems "stuck" learning any new commands, and has stopped progressing. It sounds like it's not really a plateau, it's just...she's got her commands and OB pretty much down and she needs more challenge. If this is the case, a sport like Schutzhund could very well help her. Consider getting the "Training Competitive Heeling" DVD. Doing that and Drive & Focus should keep her pretty busy for the next 5 or 6 months!

So, there's no reason to stop her going to the trainers (though I still don't like that they train totally off leash with crazy dogs) and you don't need her to have fun there, necessarily. But if you don't think she's getting ANY benefit from it, well...the decision seems pretty clear.

Barking and lunging at other dogs is a concern. Are they showing dominant posture when they approach her? If it's a response to a dog being dominant it is (slightly) less alarming than if it's a response to totally calm dogs approaching.

In any event, pack structure work will help with this. I'm going to be getting that DVD, I think. You might consider ordering it as well.

-David

 Quote: Rob Bruce

Another dog joined her group a few weeks ago, and it caused chaos. As soon as it joins the group it starts pulling and getting over-excited. The owner uses a half-check collar, which isn't fitted properly so has no effect. Her dog roars about, especially when let off lead for 'recall' practice, which really sets off the 2 guard breeds in class - Teagan and a Belgian Shepherd.

Shalini finds it really hard to control or correct Teagan, and her level 10 corrections have no effect on her in this state, and also when she meets some other dogs on walks. We think this has been exacerbated by problems in kennels, but that's another story.

Rob I'm a little confused you say you are the pack leader, but is Shalini the person doing the training with Teagan? Usually it is the leader who is the one who does the training.

As you describe that's pretty typical of any serious working dog in a group setting. When another dog goes bonkers in a group class setting my Malinois used to get all worked up. Like to say she was telling them to pipe down. I found what worked best was moving into a more senior class run and attended by people who were more serious to compete (even if you don't want to compete) in obedience if you want to continue in a group setting. As with that type of seriousness the dogs won't be all over the place and you'll have a more calm environment to train your dog. Now 6 months later my dog will look at a dog that is behaving like you described. She is now not bothered as now she has had the experience of working with calm dogs it has made her calmer in that type of situation.

Thanks Geoff - that's almost exactly what Teagan and the other guardie are doing.

I have done most of the obedience training, but we both work shifts so I can't do it all the time. I thought that if Teagan sees us both as pack leaders, it shouldn't matter who trains her?
Shalini did the 'intro to agility' day and had practiced with her since - she's much better than me at it!

The problem is that Shalini is struggling to control Teagan wherever now, not just training.

I think her being around calmer dogs will go a long way to help, so hopefully the Shutzhund club will be the ticket. I'll consider the Advanced classes too, but it will depend on the dogs attending.

Regards
Rob