luc has always had excellent outdoor obedience, but in the past two weeks - since we've really started to have snow - i've started to see some problems.

i used to walk both dogs on the traffic leads only and drop luc's lead once we were at the park so he could do his business. when he was done, i'd put him into a sit or down and he was bascically 100% reliable in that, and had been for months.

two weeks ago (the day teagan was doing especially poorly), we were in the park, his leash was dropped, and he spooked - i've no idea what caused it, i was taking teagan along to go to the washroom, luc was around 10ft away, and all of a sudden he was running out of the park and down the street, and would not come, stop, sit, nothing. he ran all the way home (avoiding traffic on our street in the process, followed by teagan and myself). he stopped on our steps and i gave him the biggest correction he's ever gotten.

i usually refuse to run or walk after the dogs (assuming learning recall), in fact i go the other way, but luc was running while i was stationary, it wasn't really a 'chase' scenario (i'm not sure if running after him made it worse, but i thought that i needed to know where he was going and what was happening to him, and i had to run after him to do that). i'm really not sure what caused it, but like i said - he just spooked and took off. i thought he was maybe upset by the extra attention teagan got that day but he was still getting his special time and he wasn't acting oddly in any other regard.

anyways, needless to say, luc is never off leash anymore. EVER. i'm still freaked out by it.

but he's now refusing to sit if there is too much snow. i don't think this is really related to him taking off, other than the unwillingness to respond to the sit command. he knows the command, no question there, but when i say sit, teagan sits, luc looks away and refuses to meet my eyes. if i pull up on the lead to move him into the sitting position, or push down on his bum, he resists. lately he's developed the habit of assuming the sitting position but leaving his bum hovering ever so slightly in the air.

he continues to have a reliable sit indoors and on sidewalks where the snow has been cleared.

he has shown signs about not being the biggest cold fan out there. but is there anything i can do about this? he's more likely to sit if the snow is compacted, but i want him to be reliable regardless of the surface. he's excellent in other regards, but he's being extremely obstinate about this. he is being walked on a flat collar again, i could go back to the prong i suppose.

thoughts? i feel like i'm teaching him to sit all over again except that this time he's resisting me. assuming he did have cold water tail syndrome at the start of november, could he still be uncomfortable and i should not push this? having teagan be the responsive one is weird! it's a little thing, but i don't like that he's choosing when and when not to sit.

 Quote:

we were in the park, his leash was dropped, and he spooked - i've no idea what caused it, i was taking teagan along to go to the washroom, luc was around 10ft away, and all of a sudden he was running out of the park and down the street, and would not come, stop, sit, nothing. he ran all the way home (avoiding traffic on our street in the process, followed by teagan and myself). he stopped on our steps and i gave him the biggest correction he's ever gotten.

Not what I would have done. Might have corrected myself though

About delicate Luc...

I notice that some dogs do not want to sit in puddles and cold stuff. This is especially true when not "in drive". If they are in drive they ususally do not notice the discomfort.

So seeing as though Luc is a pet, you don't do ob competively, do not have to work in the snow or anything, have you thought about using this as an opportunity to train a new command?

How about a "freeze" or "wait" command. I am ASSuming that the goal is to be able to make the dog stationary from a distance so you have control over your dog off lead? (Though I understand Luc will not be off leash without a fenced yard for a while )

This command need not be a sit or a down correct?

I like to train for success myself. I would work your sits outside in drive with Luc to make sure he has still "got it". Do them on that compacted snow and sidewalk...

If you want to work ob on your walk and ensure that your dog is will listen, try teaching an alternative behavior that will be more comfortable in bad conditions.

This is not to say that you may not want to get Luc to sit in uncomfortable situations occasionally. Just because you told him to.

However, I see no reason to prong the dog into every puddle when another command could accomplish the same thing.


JMHO...

 Quote: jennifer coulter

How about a "freeze" or "wait" command. I am ASSuming that the goal is to be able to make the dog stationary from a distance so you have control over your dog off lead? (Though I understand Luc will not be off leash without a fenced yard for a while )

I see no reason to prong the dog into every puddle when another command could accomplish the same thing.

Good suggestions Jennifer! This thread is near and dear to me because my dog HATES to put is pretty little butt onto anything cold, wet or slushy - basically any weather save sunshine makes him sort of squat instead of sit, if I ask him to sit. I suppose I wouldn't want to sit in icy cold slush either (and he IS a short haired dog), but Jennifer is right - there can be a "workaround" that accomplishes both your desired action (being still) and comfort.

I trained a "wait" independently of this issue (I wanted him to stop ahead of me when off leash trail hiking/running when he got to far ahead - just long enough for me to catch up...) but I find it works really well in nasty wet or wintry weather when, let's say we're at a very icy snowbank of a crosswalk, where I would normally require a sit - but since sitting is both unpleasant AND just plain difficult, I ask instead for a "wait". Works very well, and doesn't take that long to train.

~Natalya

Steh!

Yeah, I think nailing him on the porch was too late. But it's ok. Dogs live in the now, and so should you. It's GREAT that he went straight home (whew!). And also great that you've learned that he's quirky, without he or you becoming injured by it.

This totally plays into another thread where we talk about dogs that are 100% reliable never really being 100% reliable. Enough of that, you know I'm a fan of Luc AND of you, and I know that frightening incident isn't what your post was about.

If Jenn Coulter is right about what your goal is (immobilizing the dog) then the Steh (Stand) command seems perfect. Teach it like any other, with lots of patience, then lots of proofing. It's a very, very nice tool to have in the toolbox.

thanks guys. yeah, it probably wasn't the best correction, i just wanted to make it clear to him he was not to take off like that (and i arrived at the porch about 20 seconds after him).

david, you're right - 100% is never 100% - i was all 'luc is perfect in this situation' and then he almost got hit by a car, and jennifer - i agree, it was my fault it happened and it would've been my fault if he had been hit - i'm not disagreeing with that at all.

i do work sits outside with luc in other situations, while we are walking, running - like i was saying, he's fine on sidewalks and other cleared places - and he's fine inside when we practice - it's just in snow that he has this issue. i do use sit partially as a 'hold' command, that's true, but i also use it in that the dogs have to sit before we enter the park, that kind of thing.

and i've been requiring that for months, and now luc is refusing/doing it improperly at the park entrance, for instance. so he's breaking the routine, if i start giving him another command to do for a situation where he's been required to do a very specific command for months, am i giving in to him?

i do like the idea of a freeze/wait/steh command. luc has a 90% stay without any other commands attached to it, so basically like a freeze (sometimes he tries little shuffles), and i'm working on it w/teagan, b/c i'm trying to teach her 'stand' rather than 'down' (she always downs on her side, at first i was all for changing that to a proper sphinx position but now i think it may be uncomfortable for her hips, so i thought a 'stand' could take the place of 'down' for her).

it really is that i'm not sure if it is a good idea to allow him to refuse to do a command in a place he's always been required to do it before, and always done it before. thanks for the suggestions, i'm definitely going to work on a stronger freeze command - after that scare i think the more luc knows, the better - good for me to have a couple of different things to try as well.

edit: as an aside, luc is really following teagan these days. last night in the park a man came through with his off-leash dog, saw mine, and asked if his dog was okay off-leash - i said 'teagan's not always friendly' so he leashed his dog, he was a nice guy. teagan was staring at his dog during this exchange, and luc - was next to teagan, about a half foot back, also staring, ears forward, fairly confident positioning. he was so obviously doing what teagan was doing (not quite the extent teagan does, but they do have very different personalities). it turned out to be a good chance to work at distracting teagan when another dog is around. though - she GROWLED at the other dog! i have NEVER heard her do that before!

There's no area near the park entrance that has been cleared for Sitting? The sidewalks aren't shoveled, etc?

If you're in an area that he doesn't like to sit (over snow) and he does his hovery-butt thing, I wouldn't count it as a mark against him. He's trying to do the command, he just can't bear the snow. So he does the best he can. If he's totally blowing you off, that's another thing altogether.

But I don't think changing your routine will be perceived as giving in to him. That's a very sort of...long line of reasoning for a dog. "Oh, this time we came here and she asked me to do something other than sit! Therefore I've won!" He'll probably be more perplexed by the different requirement than anything.

What you're doing is getting your dog to do SOMETHING that you tell him to do. At doorways it's sit, not because sit is the most submissive posture (we know that it isn't) but because sit is the most convenient for us(who wants a german shepherd trying to go into a down right in front of the door? 9 times out of 10 there would be two big paws and a nose in the way of it opening). In this case, it isn't the specific command that we use that elevates us, it is the fact that we are requesting a behavior and withholding a resource until that behavior is performed. If you look at it this way, it doesn't matter what command you use, just THAT you use one. You can even use silly ones sometimes, like "Speak" or "Spin" if you want to bring the dogs excitement level up.

So yeah, you can use a different command every time. It's when you're there, once you've issued a command, that you have to make sure not to cave in.

 Quote: David Eagle

If you're in an area that he doesn't like to sit (over snow) and he does his hovery-butt thing, I wouldn't count it as a mark against him. He's trying to do the command, he just can't bear the snow. So he does the best he can. If he's totally blowing you off, that's another thing altogether.

I agree. This is exactly what my boy does - he wants to please me and follow the command (I don't perceive it as disobeying or shirking a command he knows), and he intently looks at me the whole time... he just can't take the freezing tush, so he does as much as he can (2/3 of a sit) and just holds like that.

Nice post David.

~Natalya

that makes sense....heh, i always forget luc isn't as smart as me (and no jokes there! )
he is a dog that wants to please, i just wasn't sure if i should let that slide or not.

but yeah, they have not cleared the sidewalks around the park entrance. there's sort of a little tunnel space but to get near the park it's all snow. nothing like having dogs to suddenly start noticing the poor clearance of sidewalks....

my other concern was that sometimes he hovers, but sometimes he just stands there and doesn't look at me. though he hovered well (sigh) last night and this morning, so we may be seeing a breakthrough

thank you - that's all very logical and a great help! you guys are great (sometimes it amazes me how focused in on one thing i get to the possible exclusion of common sense at times).

 Quote: jennifer mullen

but yeah, they have not cleared the sidewalks around the park entrance. there's sort of a little tunnel space but to get near the park it's all snow. nothing like having dogs to suddenly start noticing the poor clearance of sidewalks....

Jennifer, we must be living in parallel cities - Cambridge has no CLUE what to do with the foot of snow we got last week and it's really aggravating when main sidewalks are reduced to 12" wide shovel paths... and poorly shoveled at that!! Most cross walks aren't cleared either, leaving great hurdles of snow and ice to tackle every time you need to cross the street. It's hard enough to keep my own footing, let alone ask my dog to heel with me and auto sit whenever I stop. I feel for you and your pups!

 Quote: jennifer mullen

my other concern was that sometimes he hovers, but sometimes he just stands there and doesn't look at me. though he hovered well (sigh) last night and this morning, so we may be seeing a breakthrough

I would think not looking at you while he didn't do what you asked IS a little disobedient... not the same as at least TRYING to do what you want, but maybe it's just avoidance... Sometimes when Oscar really doesn't want to sit or lie down in the wet and cold he'll verbally refuse, but he's always giving me his attention - if he's not listening or looking at me due to distraction, he gets a little correction until he focuses.

~Natalya

things are starting to melt than freeze here, i'm just waiting until i fall and take the dogs out with me! it's absurd! main streets are okayish (depending) but ughh. there's never any space to pass with dogs too.

actually - i may be overthinking here, but the state of the sidewalks makes me really irritable (however unrational that is), i'm sure that's going down the leash somewhat and not making commands etc as fun as they normally are. i have to start breathing deeply and counting to 10 on walks.

it might just be avoidance - i can see his eyes shifting around, he's totally got this 'i'm not looking at you so i can't hear you' thing going on. it seems to come and go. but i think he may be perfecting the hover sit, so hopefully that won't be happening as much and i'll get better compliance.

he's funny too, b/c he loves the snow - running around, jumping, gamboling - when we're in the park he's out on a longer lead now while teagan and i walk in circles for however long it takes her to go, and luc bounces around us. it's really cute, and it's nice to see him having so much fun