Hello all. My name is Georgio. I am a novice certified trainer just getting started. My interests began with dog rescue here in NYC and after joining a great security breed rescue group, I quickly ended up being the trainer for their "problem" dogs. most stay well behaved until the "terrible two's". two weeks or two months being re-homed and they seem to start to get comfortable and show their shortcomings. I have done will so far with only some minor issues including a few good bites which where all my fault, and par for the learning course, I feel.

Well through this experience, I have a usual pack of no more then 12 and no less then 6 bully, rottie, GS, Presa, dogo;s etc..

I have been careful, yet also lucky that so far, most all of the dogs seem to get along throughout their training here.
Well UNTIL NOW!

Out of some 100 dogs, I have chosen THEE two as keeper dogs. I say thee two because as luck would have it, they are thee only two dogs I have kenneled who DO NOT get along. One is a quiet very large APBT, over 120lbs. he seems to be about 3-4, confidant in himself, respectful and he understands MOSTLY that I am the Alpha. His one issue is that he will roll his gums up if disturbed in his sleep or alpha rolled for a common belly rub. Not always, but something that gets him crated a few times a week

Next is a Presa/Pit mix named Tom. Tom was just picked as a feature in bullybreed's 2008 calender, a MO old looker. Short, bully, and a silly guy, but what any trainer would recognize as a "jerk". Tom runs the yard with his tail up, steals toys whenever he can, growls during play, etc. Now Tom came to me with a handler aggression issue. One that caused him to receive a harsh correction taking Tom off of all 4 feet and basically choking him out until he was lethargic. May I say that Tom SEEMED to wake up a new Dog. He was on his best behavior until one day he decided to get up at 5am and walk over to the other guys crate and start a fence fight. When I went to grab his always hanging leash, tom snapped at me. I then gave a stern NO! and tried a second time. Tom unfortunately went for it and well so did I. I broke the rule regarding fights you don't think you will win. I guess I was appalled and insulted, so I took the bite, got to the Dominant dog collar and Carried this guy like a sack over my shoulder. Yet this time I did not hold Tom as long, and I released him hoping for a positive result before a large loss of air. Well Sadly, Tom stayed "awake" for this harsh but deserved correction, and now, he is a grow-el machine. He seems to think a harsh hand is coming his way no matter what the situation is IF we are in the house. Outside he is a bit better, but still not like any of the other students.
At this point he is still the pack "jerk" but gets away with some of it because I fear that my last harsh correction, when he bit me, has damaged trust and overall relationship with me.

Lastly, since this encounter, the Larger passive guy will do nothing but attempt to attack Tom now. before the fence fighting, they where tolerable of one another. No more. No Muzzled meetings, no walks on common ground, no time out or correction with any collar including the electric, will deter the big pit from trying to fight Tom.

Here is Tom with his Arch enemy behind him. Just to put a face to this story.


As a rescuer and a so called trainer, I would hate to have to get rid of one for lack or complacency, but I am at a loss and I feel I have tried all things in my arsenal. I am desperate and eager for input and advice from more experienced Trainers and others in the industry.

Before we reference any DVDs or lessons, Let me say I have most of Ed's titles which pertain to this issue, and Yes, corrections seem to help keep both dogs at bay when on leash with two handlers, yet this is a house,these are my home dogs not a kennel, and I am trying to determine if these animals can and will ever be able to tolerate one another without total crate rotation.

Please remember that one or both dogs may have fought previously to coming to my rescue. Both are Bully/pit type breeds, both compete for my home spot for a keeper dog, and they both are dominant within my ever changing pack regardless. Although the one older bigger APBT, who ALWAYS wins these scuffles, seems to have no problem wrestling other males and "playing", the younger smaller Tom will NEVER allow another dog to take top position in play settings and usualy growels even in play.

thank you in advance for any help you may give, and happy New Year to you all.

Georgio

 Quote: georgio pasha

His one issue is that he will roll his gums up if disturbed in his sleep or alpha rolled for a common belly rub. Not always, but something that gets him crated a few times a week

Welcome, Georgio! Glad you signed up. It sounds like you get to work with some awesome dogs, I envy you!

I roll my gums when my wife disturbs my sleep. She's learning. I haven't had to bite her, yet.

1. How long have you had this specific dog? Long enough for him to trust you?

You talk about an alpha roll, and a belly rub at the same time. I think it's probably a good idea to wait for the dog to offer it's belly to do rubs, alpha rolling a dog that you don't have a GREAT bond with is a fantastic way to get bitten, and doesn't accomplish much beyond that, sadly.

 Quote:

At this point he is still the pack "jerk" but gets away with some of it because I fear that my last harsh correction, when he bit me, has damaged trust and overall relationship with me.

2. And how long have you had Tom?

I'd get Establishing Pack Structure with a Family Pet and start groundwork with him immediately.

 Quote:

Lastly, since this encounter, the Larger passive guy will do nothing but attempt to attack Tom now. before the fence fighting, they where tolerable of one another. No more. No Muzzled meetings, no walks on common ground, no time out or correction with any collar including the electric, will deter the big pit from trying to fight Tom.

Is there some reason that they need to get along? They are each your dogs, they don't need to be friends as well. Make sure their crates are in seperate rooms. You could alternate them sleeping in your bedroom every other week, the scents in a bedroom are great for a dog, and I really think it improves their bond. They shouldn't be crated where they can see or easily smell each other. Certainly not while you work on pack structure with each of them individually.

 Quote:

Here is Tom with his Arch enemy behind him. Just to put a face to this story.


As a rescuer and a so called trainer, I would hate to have to get rid of one for lack or complacency, but I am at a loss and I feel I have tried all things in my arsenal. I am desperate and eager for input and advice from more experienced Trainers and others in the industry.

Before we reference any DVDs or lessons, Let me say I have most of Ed's titles which pertain to this issue, and Yes, corrections seem to help keep both dogs at bay when on leash with two handlers, yet this is a house,these are my home dogs not a kennel, and I am trying to determine if these animals can and will ever be able to tolerate one another without total crate rotation.

Ahh, I hadn't read this part before my replies above. This may invalidate my replies. Well, there's a chance that you can establish yourself as their pack leader. If you can do that, you will be able to control their interaction, but only while they're right there with you. It may be that what you perceive as the desire to kill each other is simply their responsive to the genetic imperative to figure out their pack structure. Or you could be right, they might really want to kill each other. If it's the latter, your being their pack leader won't protect them from getting into a fight when you go upstairs to just "grab a book real quick" and leave them alone for a few minutes. Have you considered a male and a female, instead of 2 males?

 Quote:

Please remember that one or both dogs may have fought previously to coming to my rescue. Both are Bully/pit type breeds, both compete for my home spot for a keeper dog, and they both are dominant within my ever changing pack regardless. Although the one older bigger APBT, who ALWAYS wins these scuffles, seems to have no problem wrestling other males and "playing", the younger smaller Tom will NEVER allow another dog to take top position in play settings and usualy growels even in play.

thank you in advance for any help you may give, and happy New Year to you all.

Georgio

I get the sense that you kind of see the writing on the wall here. Work on pack structure, see if that helps, but continue to be a realist. Can you deal with a crate rotation? We do it, it's really not bad, but each dog owner has different ideals.

I'm sure others will chime in. Do keep us all updated.

Why not attempt a good old fashion classical counter conditioning program. Find out how close you can get the two together before the big guy gets stressed. I mean long before he's barking or growling and start from there. Counter condition them to be ok with each other. This combined with a management plan (you may never be able to trust them off lead) can be very effective and it has the dual purpose of helping to build a bond that may have been damaged by the DD collar (you said he's now scared of hands) and helping the aggression.

Georgio,

I would recommend you follow David's advice here. Mr. Colbert is a recent guest to this board who states in a thread just a few weeks ago

" Susan, I don't have enough expertise with aggression to answer this "

I would make you aware that not everyone on this board has enough experience or knowledge on the topic of aggression to offer safe advice.

I will also caution other posters to refrain from posting info on threads that may get someone injured because of their lack of experience . Dog aggression is serious business, best left to those who have dealt with this kind of thing successfully.

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

Why not attempt a good old fashion classical counter conditioning program. Find out how close you can get the two together before the big guy gets stressed. I mean long before he's barking or growling and start from there. Counter condition them to be ok with each other. This combined with a management plan (you may never be able to trust them off lead) can be very effective and it has the dual purpose of helping to build a bond that may have been damaged by the DD collar (you said he's now scared of hands) and helping the aggression.

Benjamin, honest question here. How much Pit experience do you have?

I ask this b/c if you know Pits at all, you know that with dogs who like to fight, there are often very few, if any, NOTICEABLE signs before they latch on for the long haul. I respectfully disagree with your advice to Georgio based on my Pit experience. Yes, I concede that a 120lb dog is not an APBT, but a mix of some sort, but still. Not a good idea, IMO. Unless he has about 10 highly skilled people armed with tasers and breaking sticks on hand to help. The key to Pit management w/those who can show aggression toward other animals, is avoidance.

I apologize in advance if my reply is irrelevant; this jumped out at me before I finished reading the responses.

 Quote: David Eagle

Is there some reason that they need to get along? They are each your dogs, they don't need to be friends as well.

Hmmm, this sounds familiar . I second this. Georgio, I think you already answered your own question; you have tried everything in your arsenal, and it's not working. Don't consider it a failure on your part. Allowing it to continue and having someone hurt or killed is far worse than admitting that these two aren't going to get along. Keep 'em separated. They don't need doggie friends; they have you.



Edited by Jenni Williams (12/29/2007 01:21 PM)
Edit reason: typo

I got two dogs that will rank on each other continuously if I'm not there and had one serious fight already. What works for me is kennels for when I'm not there, crates when I'm not watching and plenty of vigorous excercise daily so they can burn off some tension. That is along with good solid obedience training.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

Hmmm, this sounds familiar .

Hehe. I think I mentioned in another thread that I steal all of my good ideas from people named Jennifer.

Such a wise man you are, David! You're probably the kind of man who asks for directions!

I wish more would respond to this topic; I'm curious to see if anyone else is more optimistic than I am about these guys. I just wouldn't chance it again w/dogs so strong and determined.

Hello again all. David, Cindy, Ben, Dennis, Jen, the rest.. Thank you..

Let me get to a few things..
One is the fear of incorrect advice being offered. I understand that this is a forum and not a class and I am not here to take anyone to court, not to get myself further bit. I do appreciate EVERYONE'S input and will take it with caution and a grain of salt.

Now.

Let me say that most of my "expertise" was derived by living in the south Bronx at the hight of every low life wanting and owning pit bulls. I agree that no APBT comes in at his size, but around these parts, there has been some good and bad breeding and the results are two fold.. Staff types, short and bully with giant crocodile heads, and these guys which resemble a Dogo on steroids.. No matter, again, I am a rescue and not a breeder. Mutts are welcome here.

So Let me say that No dog has been here for more than 60 days. The pattern I seem to see is that when they arrive they are overly friendly and playful for a bit. They then get comfortable and show their faults.. This is when I actually seem to LOOSE my Alpha status, or maybe its a friendship that they think they have made with me, yet they never did RESPECT me, but no matter what, once any level 4 and up leash corrections start happening, Its fear aggression, that I think I am seeing. Remember again, many of these dogs have had HORRIBLE unfair abusive owners in the past. The starving ones seem to have food aggression, the fighters are scared of your hands, etc.. My title is on the money, for a beginner, I am in WAY over my skill level of diagnosis. I cant even get a behaviorist to come out and see these guys, because most dismiss them as hopeless right on the phone.

I am a big Fella. 6'1 300lbs, and I am pretty stern. I allow no humping, no pull games, no hording, nobody gets anything I cannot take away.. I believe I do a pretty good job establishing both dominance and more importantly protection and support for the dogs. I say this because all but these two will come right to me to stop hard playing, or for protection. None take on one another but these two.

As for the good or bad advice regarding "classical counter conditioning program". I am not ashamed to admit ignorance or lack or knowledge and this I know nothing about.
I see where the advice looks scary, but its something that I have done with them and continue to do. They have NO problem sitting with one another at either side of my legs. They will even sleep on the same dog couch, with no problems all night. BUT As I said, the little black fella seems to stare, he is vocal both at play and when wanting something. He is only about 11 old. So he likes to steal the Kong ball outside and the others all play follow the leader.. I have gotten experienced enough to see when a froth is building, and to shut down the play. This is fine. I Also try and keep him on lead ALL the time. As stated, he is " a jerk" but means nothing more then wanting to play way too much.
Its when I do not seem to recognize anything at all that worries me. For instance, the big guy has slipped past me letting him out of the crate and he will pass 5 pits, a poodle, my 70 yr old mom and food, all to find this guy and to attack him.
I have tried the opposite where I foolishly thought it was one dog and I allowed the big guy to stay on lead with me as the black one was loose. At that point the black guy sought out the bigger leashed pit and attacked.

So I guess what I am asking here is this. Are they displaying some sort of challenging signs to one another that can be worked on and conditioned, or are they just out to fight one another. Remember that with me supervising, they do sit with one another plus sleep together with no issues.

As for the crate rotation? I am working with feral wild dogs all day and some nights. When I enter my home, I want a "no concerns" pet, not another client.

Again thanks to you all.

let me also add that before his death, my dad was a K-9 officer in a task force here in NYC. I have seen my share of security dogs displaying their skills. With that said, Let me tell you all who have not experienced it.. There is NOTHING like two full grown pit bulls attacking a fellow animal. I have two Rotties here, a presa, a cane.. None move as quickly from passive to ferocious. It actually bothers me because I am used to these animals and more then once I have witnessed these attacks from step one to step none, and I literally could not move fast enough to protect the dog who was inches from my side. Its a lightning quick attack with zero warning time. No ears, no hair standing.

I am also a bit guilty because for all the effort and time put into these two, many other "good" dogs, would gladly comply and be happy to be alive. My luck, these are the two I fell for, and I am steadfast on exhausting ALL avenues before giving up on keeping them both.

David, I wanted to get your thoughts on my probably terrible Idea. On the chance that they are indeed trying to establish their pack rank, would allowing them to wrestle/muzzle fight, make that issue pass or exacerbate and support the idea of them fighting?

Also The fear growl. when I go to wake this fella and his growling and guarding is at a non threatening level, I try to ignore it and touch them right through the growl, attempting to say " Ah, your nothing big to me, and your attempt to back me off does nothing, so quit it, I was only giving you a scratch". On the other hand, I don't want to give the idea that I am praising poor behavior, and so what is the correct correction at that point?

Happy New Year To you and your families folks

Geo