It's me again! My dog is now 15 weeks old. At this point in my dog's life I am confused nearly every day as to how to train, what's good, what's bad. i find myself getting irritated etc. I have asked a lot of questions on here and gotten some excellent advice from people. However, I still have several problems. I recieved the 'establishing pack structure' DVD and found it very informative and to fit my situation in many instances. There are several questions that arise throughout though, and I am very much in need of some help before I go berrrzerk. I have also watched the basic dog obedience dvd and the 8 wks to 8mos dvd.

First of all, I feel as if I need to really establish pack structure, at least from watching the DVD as step 1. My first question is....when is it too young to start pack structure training? I would expect you can start at 8 weeks or so. According to the DVD the first step is seclusion i.e. letting the dog get used to being alone and get used to the handler controlling every second of it's life. No play, no nothing, except food, potty, and walking. What are your thoughts on doing this with a 15 week old puppy? Is this meant for an older pup or should it be used on a younger one? I want the dog to bond with me, but i want the dog to respect me as well. So currently, I am taking the dog out for 20 minute walks a couple of times a day, allow it to use the bathroom, and other than that, it is put away and ignored more or less. I am now feeding in the crate. So here is a typical day, and my typical problems during the day:

At 6:30, I get up and feed the dog. Actually, I completely ignore it for about 15 minutes or so. Then I take it out to use the bathroom and when thats done I 'attempt' to take it on a walk. This is another problem...my dog will not let up on the leash it constantly pulls and by 'pull' i mean it crouches and walks like it is pulling a wagon behind it, unfortunately i am the wagon. It gets extremely irritating. I don't correct it with this leash at this point...should i? She will pull to the point she chokes herself and will not let up just pulls along and sounds like she is going to hack up a lung. I don't know if I am doing more harm than good by walking her. But in absence of toys (as is recommended in the dvd) how else can i excercise her?

Moving forward, after the walk / wagon pulling session, i bring the dog back in and it goes in its crate. It stays there until noon when I take it our for potty. She is then put back up.

When i get home at 5, i take it for another walk and then back in crate with dinner. I let it out every couple of hours for a potty break only and then put it back in the crate.

During the last few days, I have removed all toys, i am not playing with the dog at all, I am..in the words of the dvd...aloof. The dog is constantly on leash now as well. Is this scenario helpful in your mind? Do you guys train your dog in the same way? Is it possible by doing this that i am harming the dog and not allowing it to bond with me? Am i making it go nuts by leaving it couped up in the crate too long each day?

Am i being too hard or expecting too much?

My dog is a hard dog without any doubt. I have just 'tested the water' with leash correction to see what it can take while walking and i can give a fairly hard pop on the leash (i would call it level 6 or 7)...and it is not even phased in the slightest. It will not even look at me but is focused on whatever it wants to do. Once again, i don't correct on walks other than a couple of testing the waters corrections i have tried in the past to gauge temperment.

Here is what i would like to get to:

1. the dog is calm when it's out of the crate, at least until it is played with.
2. the dog doesn't drag me down the neighborhood. I don't mind it being active, I am active, but i can't even walk it without it going crazy and trying to drag me down the street.
3. the dog doesn't jump all over me constantly and chew on me constantly.

I hate not playing with dog. i would love to play with it all the time if I could. But, here is the other issue. When i let it out of the crate, it goes crazy on me. it jumps over everything including me.

So...am I being too hard on a dog by ignoring it in attempt to develop pack structure or not? I am trying to follow the DVD's but I don't know if I should just make myself understand that the dog is a puppy and doesn't know any better.

I guess the meat of my whole long question is this:

Should i just chill out and let the puppy run, play, bite, drag me around, chew on toys, and pretty much do what it wants until a certain age....OR should i jump in and start establishing pack structure by secluding it and slowly working my way into toy play? Should i consider a prong collar for walking? Honestly, either way would make sense to me, but I need to know what has worked best for those with experience in this. Should i follow the DVD advice or no?

Any help is much appreciated.

 Quote: Mark Surgenor

I 'attempt' to take it on a walk. This is another problem...my dog will not let up on the leash it constantly pulls and by 'pull' i mean it crouches and walks like it is pulling a wagon behind it, unfortunately i am the wagon. It gets extremely irritating.

Are you by any chance using a harness instead of a flat collar? Just a shot.....

 Quote: Mark Surgenor

Here is what i would like to get to:

1. the dog is calm when it's out of the crate, at least until it is played with.
2. the dog doesn't drag me down the neighborhood. I don't mind it being active, I am active, but i can't even walk it without it going crazy and trying to drag me down the street.
3. the dog doesn't jump all over me constantly and chew on me constantly.

Do you mark and reward for calmness?

When do you play with the dog? How much?

Do you reward jumping on you with excited attention?

Oh, and a disclaimer: I have and have always had all adults. So puppy people will have more/better thoughts for you.

Mark,

I haven't seen the pack structure DVD, it wasn't out when my dog was a puppy, so I really can't comment on it. Here is what we did.

When we couldn't have eyes on him, he was in the crate. That meant he was in the crate a lot. But when we could pay attention to him, he was out of the crate and we played with him. We did have problems with him that were due to pack structure issues (I asked Ed, that's what he told me) and I wish I had the DVD then, but as I said, it wasn't out.

We brought him to a trainer when he was quite young, and she said "he needs to learn no" and she gave us a choke collar. We used the choke collar, and he'd choke himself pulling so hard. Awhile later, when he was about your pups age, a friend of mine came to visit and gave me a small prong collar, and taught me how to put it on him. After she left I put the prong collar away. Because no way was I going to put that evil device on my puppy.

After a couple of more weeks of him pulling and pulling and pulling on the leash, and choking himself, I tried the prong collar. Amazingly enough, the pulling stopped. The choking stopped.

I know a lot of people will have different opinions on when a dog is old enough to use a prong collar, but for me, it worked like a miracle. When I say that, I mean just having the prong on fixed the pulling problem, I didn't have to correct him, he'd self correct. That's my experience with the prong and a young puppy.

No. I am using a flat collar. I yank on it and nothing happens, it's as if the dog doesn't notice. Once she is focused on something she goes for it come hell or high water unless i yank her in a different direction, she then focuse immediately on something else and goes for it.

Connie,

1. No, I have not been rewarding calmness. maybe that's part of the problem. I need to work harder on the marker concept.

2. For the last 3 days, i haven't played with the dog at all based on what the DVD indicated for the initial phases of pack structure. I only 'attempt' to walk her for excercise. And then she is put back up until she is let out for excercise or to relieve herself. No play right now.

3. when she jumps on me, I turn away, or put her back on ground and then gently pet her. I try in every way not to get her excited.

What I am wondering is if for the walking problem I should put the prong collar on, but not correct with it. just let her self correct??

Mark, here is what I did that helped the pulling (somewhat).
First of all, keep in mind that your pup is 4 months old, and everything excites her. And it sounds like she needs more exercise...

My pup was really pulling hard on leash. I was 'walking' her w/ a 5' leash, which gave her no room to explore and because of that she constantly pulled.
I bought a flexi-lead, and adjusted my expectations about what to expect on a walk with her. I also read a lot of past threads here, and finally figured out what to try that would help w/ the pulling
Here's what I did (do):
As we were walking, when she reached the end of the lead and pulled, I immediately stopped moving forward. I mean, no movement at all. When she turned and looked at me, I would call her in a friendly voice and when she came to me I would mark the behavior 'yesss' and give her a treat and continue to move forward. Repeat this about 1000 times! It is slow going, but it does work. (any time you move forward while the pup is pulling just reinforces the behavior...believe me, I know because I did it for 3 months w/ her before I figured it out!)

If she still isn't paying too much attention to you when you are outside, increase the value of the treat...

If she was running on the leash, I would call out 'slow!' and set my legs before she reached the end of the lead so that she would jerk herself. And not move forward. Then call her back to you, mark and reward her when she comes. Any time she comes to you on her own or looks your way, mark and reward her.

Do you have somewhere that she can be offleash to burn some energy? Or on a 20' line? It helps a lot to let her burn a little energy off before you walk her.

Now, my pup is pretty good in familiar situations, but still pulls in new ones. At 6 months I conditioned her to a prong, and we use it when we are walking in new places. Eventually, I would like to eliminate it though...

I can recommend the book 'Purely Positive Training' by Sheila Booth. It's full of good training tips and also helped me view my pup's behavior in a different light.

PS, if you have not done any marker training, start w/ that right away. Ed shows how to start marker training in the puppy dvd...

Good luck!



Edited by Lynne Barrows (01/10/2008 03:30 PM)
Edit reason: added something

 Quote: Mark Surgenor

Connie,

1. No, I have not been rewarding calmness. maybe that's part of the problem. I need to work harder on the marker concept.

2. For the last 3 days, i haven't played with the dog at all based on what the DVD indicated for the initial phases of pack structure. I only 'attempt' to walk her for excercise. And then she is put back up until she is let out for excercise or to relieve herself. No play right now.

3. when she jumps on me, I turn away, or put her back on ground and then gently pet her. I try in every way not to get her excited.

Mark, I think that you still need to play with your puppy. She's still a baby, remember!
When you let her out of the crate, fold your arms and turn away from her. Also, before you let her out of the crate, wait until she's calm. Move your hand forward and if she jumps in the crate, say 'no' and step back. Try again and again and again, until she 'gets' what you are asking for. Once she's out,if she' jumps, keep turning away from her until she stops jumping. Don't greet her when she's jumping. Try to let her calm herself down as opposed to you holding her down. When she stops jumping, mark her being quiet and then pet her...


Edited by Lynne Barrows (01/10/2008 03:34 PM)
Edit reason: added something