Hi everyone, I have a four-month-old (20 week) mixed breed puppy who is currently about 45 lbs.

I rescued this dog's mother while she was pregnant, so I've had him since he was born.

While the puppies were little (between about 2 and 8 weeks) I socialized them very carefully with many different surfaces (wood, carpet, towels, grass, many others), sounds (blender, dishwasher, vacuum cleaner) and whatever else I could think of. I handled each puppy at least 4 times a day every day since birth. The mother is a very friendly dog and very social, loves people and doesn't have an unusual amount of fear. She was spayed and adopted when the pups were 3 months old.

Unfortunately, I had a very hard time adopting out the pups, they were between 15 and 17 weeks old by the time they left. I had not been prepared for a litter at all and have no experience with puppies, but when they were about 9 or 10 weeks old I started to take them on short car rides one at a time. There were four pups in the litter so they only went out about once a week, twice max. I work full time as well.

Anyway, the litter and mom seemed very confident, I took them to the vet's a couple times and they were curious and friendly and did not act fearful at all, 3 pups and the mom were neutered when the pups were 3 months old and they were running around the office before they had even completely recovered from the anasthetic, exploring, stealing items, being puppies.

I decided to adopt one of the pups (he is the one who is still intact). When the last littermate finally left, I started to take my guy out for walks and socializing and to my surprise, he started acting very fearful. He pulls away or hides behind me whenever he sees someone approaching, even at a good distance. The entire walk he will have his tail down and dart back and forth like he is nervous. I posted another thread asking for socializing ideas, so I've been following those suggestions for about a week and he is no better. (We have gone out somewhere every night for a week, before that it was more sporradic.)

I have tried getting the strangers to offer him treats, and he will sniff the treat but not take it, and act really stressed. He will not allow any strangers to pet him, he just tries to get away. He has NEVER been mistreated in any way.

One of the reasons I adopted this puppy is because I work in rescue, I deal with fearful, undersocialized dogs all the time and I thought this pup would be a friendly, confident dog that I could take with me in public. I am really disappointed that all my hard work with this dog has not paid off.

He is fine at home, when guests come over (for example, his brother's adopters, or members of my family during the holidays) he will run over to them and ask for pets. He is not afraid of the vacuum or any other thing that dogs are normally afraid of. As I said I was surprised by his behaviour which seems to have started about 2 1/2 weeks ago. It seems to be the combination of strange people and strange environment.

Am I expecting too much from a 4-month-old? Will he outgrow this if I am persistent with socializing? Is it a phase? What specific exercises can I do with him to get him over this? I am new to puppies, I usually work with adults whose socialization period is over.

Thanks!

Was he kept with his littermates the entire time you had them? How long after his last littermate was adopted did this behavior start, or was it before that? It sounds like his behavior change started with his last littermate being adopted. If he was kept with his littermates for a long period of time or if he still had a lot of access to them he is likely quite doggy. His "pack" leaving is a rather traumatic event for a pup that has been raised with his littermates and it is not uncommon at all for a doggy pup to become fearful and unsure when his littermates are all gone. He needs to bond with you and not allowed access to other dogs for a while and only bond with you.

he is 5 months old - is he teething? How much interaction is he getting with other dogs/animals, and you?

When you were socializing the pups, did they only encounter strange items/objects/surfaces or strange people as well?

 Quote: jennifer marshal

Was he kept with his littermates the entire time you had them? How long after his last littermate was adopted did this behavior start, or was it before that? It sounds like his behavior change started with his last littermate being adopted.

Yes, he was - I simply did not have the facilities or the room to separate all the pups (never mind giving them individual attention). I know it wasn't the right thing to do. Actually I was rather upset by it but... what can you do. I would agree that his behaviour started after his last littermate finally went to his new home.

 Quote: jennifer marshal

If he was kept with his littermates for a long period of time or if he still had a lot of access to them he is likely quite doggy. His "pack" leaving is a rather traumatic event for a pup that has been raised with his littermates and it is not uncommon at all for a doggy pup to become fearful and unsure when his littermates are all gone. He needs to bond with you and not allowed access to other dogs for a while and only bond with you.

He is definitely doggy. I have two other dogs, both adults, at the present time and the dogs are all crated (but in the same room). That is the only contact he currently has with them because he is WAY too drawn to them, he tries to play with them when they are out even though he's in his crate, one time I did let him play with my male and he would not pay any attention to me whatsoever. He is VERY doggy and I'm trying to take steps to bond with him. I take him outside separately than the other two and when the other two are outside that is when he is loose in the house with me. He is not allowed to play with them.

Maybe I could take my much less fearful female along on our outings, would it help him to see how she reacts (or I should say doesn't react) in a strange situation?

 Quote: jennifer marshal

he is 5 months old - is he teething? How much interaction is he getting with other dogs/animals, and you?

When you were socializing the pups, did they only encounter strange items/objects/surfaces or strange people as well?

He's actually 4 months old, as of Dec 29 (born Aug 29). Yes he is teething, he already lost/replaced most of his little incisors (I think that's what they are called, at the front of his mouth).

I mainly did the items/sounds, I wasn't experienced enough to realize that contact with humans on a daily basis and contact with STRANGE humans was different in terms of socializing. They did meet new people on occasion (when together) and it was always a very postive thing, they were friendly and outgoing with people. The shyness really surprised me.

Do you think it would be helpful (for bonding) to put a crate in my bedroom for him? Would this cause any problems with my other two dogs who are not allowed in my room (like favouritism or something?)

My fearful pup sleeps in the bedroom with us, no other dogs are allowed in there. It doesnt seem to cause any problem

I have also been letting him see loki, who loves EVERYBODY and with gusto,give affection and play with other people. It seems to help because he trusts Loki.

Tonight my mom came by and i brought pup out to the car. He stayed with me at their house for 2 weeks when we first got him and never really warmed up to them at all, would greet my mom and play ball some but not let her touch him.

Tonight he got in the car with me and greeted her happily, gave her a kiss, and then held her hand and rested his little head on her hand with his paw. he also let her pet his head and cheeks which is a big huge step for him.

I was ASTOUNDED!!! but its a good sign.
So dont give up, they do make progress.

 Quote:

Maybe I could take my much less fearful female along on our outings, would it help him to see how she reacts (or I should say doesn't react) in a strange situation?

No, no other dogs Even if her calm confident energy were to be benefit him, he still would be fearful on his own, with just you around. What he wants is another dog around because he feels he needs his pack and does not see you as a significant member of that pack right now.

 Quote:

Do you think it would be helpful (for bonding) to put a crate in my bedroom for him? Would this cause any problems with my other two dogs who are not allowed in my room (like favouritism or something?)

I would definitely keep his crate in another room. All that you do in letting the other dogs out right in front of his face while he is crated is cause frustration - he just wants to be with them more and the crate becomes a prison that is keeping him from his pack when he wants to socialize.

Putting him in your room should not affect the other dogs as long as you don't do anything different with them. Don't show them more affection just because you think they might be jealous the puppy is in your room. You are the alpha, if you want a dog in your room that is your decision.

You said he was 20 weeks, which is close to 5 months, sorry for the misinterpretation.

For the shyness and fear he just needs to bond with you and be kept away from the other dogs. And I mean completely away from them, no interaction until he has bonded with you and trusts you. I do not think he is a hard case or an impossible case at all, he is just a puppy that is insecure because his pack has left him. Duke not only didn't trust me - he hated and was afraid of me because I had caught him like a wild animal. He was afraid of lights being turned on over his head, of being in the house period, and anything that was not "natural" (as in a tree, rock, the ground, or a stream) he was afraid of. I bonded with him and today he will walk through a supermarket completely unphased. This is because he trusts me and there is not one single question about who leads who.

It just takes time and patience. I think you can do it, just don't lose faith or get frustrated.

Thanks for the input ladies.

I have moved his crate into my bedroom as of Friday night. (I thought it would be best to do this over a weekend). I am kind of struggling with the scheduling of the 3 dogs - they are all getting a LOT of crate time right now, I don't like that one bit but I guess it can't be helped.

In the time we do spend together, I've tried to keep things as positive as I can - playing in his pen together, taking him on car trips every night to a new place - we've done the park, parking lots and Super Pet.

I do have a question... I only have about 5 hours to divide between the dogs in the evenings. Sometimes I'm really tired and want to just sit in front of the TV, or on weekends I want to spend time with all 3 dogs and it doesn't seem fair to leave the little guy locked in his crate in my room away from everyone. So, is it OK to set up an ex-pen for him in the living room and he can be in there with us while I watch TV or hang out with the adult dogs?

Or like right now, I'm on my computer, he's in his "basement pen" beside me and the two adults are on the outside of the pen but also downstairs. Is this OK? Or should I shut the pup or the adult dogs away?

On another note, I've taken him to PetSmart twice since my OP, and he was acting all shy and nervous, crouching down, looking around nervously, clinging to my legs etc. One of the "trainers" approached me and started talking about my shy puppy and giving me suggestions on how to help him. As she talked she crouched down and offered him treats without looking at him. It was like a miracle. After he took about 3-4 treats, it was like he "woke up" and his tail came up, he was more confident and he even went up to some other customers in the store to say hello, explored the store and acted normal. (It didn't carry through to our next outing to the park, but holy cow, still). The second time I went was today and the same thing happened.

Anyway she sold me her puppy class, explaining that it would help the dog to focus on me in the presence of distractions (which is the precise reason I take my adult rescues to obedience classes). I think this is what the puppy needs. Class size would be like, 3 or 4. She explained we go out and "meet" the other store employees so it's a positive experience for the puppy. There is no "playtime" between the puppies which I was glad to hear.

So.. would this be a good idea? I like it? It's better than what I am doing now which is going to the park or parking lots, since I get off work after dark and the weather is crappy and there are very few if any people around. When there are, even if they are in the distance, the pup focuses on them and acts worried and will not play or focus on me.

Angella, you don't need the classes for this sort of possitive experience routine for your pup. PetsMart trainers get commission for selling their classes and the equipment they use in those classes. I am not saying it is bad, but it is a waste of money. How do I know? I was employed with PetsMart with the purpose of being a Pet Trainer their. I went through their "testing" and paperwork and watching sessions. Yes it is possitive, yes it can be a good experience but it is a waste of money better spent on equipment, toys, and food and treats for your pack.

About the time spent - I can understand not having much time and having too many dogs. Having him in a pen with the other dogs even in sight you might as well just have him out playing with them. A doggy pup focuses on other dogs. The more he is around them the longer it will take to bond with you. I understand that he acts fearful in the park - if he is out at night that is understandable behavior, and he doesn't focus on you or show interest in playing because he does not think you will protect him. He needs to bond with you.

Being friendly and not fearful in a pet store is completely different than being friendly and not fearful in a park at night. It may be good for him, you just have to decide if it is money well spent or not. I don't want to sound harsh but if you really have that little amount of time you may be better off finding him a home. I know it is tough, but one thing I learned is the more dogs I have at home affects the work I can do with further rescues - it limits my time to properly rehab and help new dogs and still be fair to my own pack.

Hi Angela,

I think you got started a little late in socializing your pup, but so what? He's not "broken" forever. He's still a young, resiliant guy despite how he may be acting. He can either stay in this fearful rut he's in, or bounce back from it...it is entirely up to you.

By up to you, I mean that you are going to have to decide if you are committed enought (and have enough time) to work with your pup on this. Obviously, you have the inclination and the motivation...but it does take time. So, if you're committed to doing that then you can help your pup, IMO.

First of all, I'd personally skip the Petsmart session. I understand your motivation in wanting to go there. But for all the good it might do you, it could easily wind up making the situation worse.

 Quote: angela burrell

Anyway she sold me her puppy class, explaining that it would help the dog to focus on me in the presence of distractions (which is the precise reason I take my adult rescues to obedience classes). I think this is what the puppy needs. Class size would be like, 3 or 4. She explained we go out and "meet" the other store employees so it's a positive experience for the puppy. There is no "playtime" between the puppies which I was glad to hear.

I don't buy the "no playtime" thing. There is no way that Petsmart runs that tight a ship. If one of these people, before after or during the class has a dog that gets a little saucy with your pup, then any work is down the tubes. And it doesn't even have to be in the class...many people bring their dogs to Petsmart to socialize their dogs while they shop, and their version of socializing is very often to let the dogs tangle up together while they're looking the other way at rhinestone leashes and whatnot.

And, IMHO, you and your dog would be better served by work you do together, not through a trainer or a class. "Teaching a dog to focus in the presence of distraction" is NOT the first phase of training...it's one of the last. You don't have your child do his homework at a toy store, right? Too crazy for any solid learning to take place.

And remember something: The higher the distractions in the training environment, the longer you'll have to go to training which means you'll spend more money! If you really feel you need some personal guidance with a trainer, I think your money will be much better spent on a private lesson. If the trainer's worth anything, you'll get much more out of one session with him or her than you would with 6 weeks at Petsmart.

That trainer crouched down, avoided eye contact, and offered treats to your fearful dog. She was nonconfrontational. Whether or not you go to the classes, I would learn from that tiny lesson: Your pup does not want big hankin' humans pawing at him and towering over him (which incidentally will happen at Petsmart, too, if you don't stop people).

The way to desensitize a pup to new situations is to take him lots of places, but keep him safe. Remember, that's what a pack leader does and it's not what YOU think is safe...it's learning your pup's limits and graduallly increasing those limits.

For now, I would just walk the pup in an area where there are a lot of people. Don't put any demands on the pup other than a forward movement. And walk...don't sit on a bench and allow the pup's mental wheels to spin! Gradually, you can add in brief stops where you talk to another person but that person doesn't engage. Ultimately you can work on having the dog accept pats from people...but I don't personally see a need for that. I don't want strangers petting ME, either! You don't need a dog that wants to go home with everyone, you just want a dog you can take everywhere. Two different things, IMO.

If your dog is nervous on a walk that doesn't even have strange people involved, then here is something that has worked many a time with a dog that is fearful or nervous on walks:

Find a spot around your house...maybe a block away (SHORT walk, in other words) and when you get to this spot...do something fun with your dog. For some dogs, it's bringing out a ball. Keep it short and sweet and head home while your dog is still having fun. Leave on a good note.

For others they're so nervous that the only thing that will work is if you bring along his meal and feed them there! I had an extremely nervous young foster dog once that everyone had given up walking. I started bringing the dog to the "spot," and he only got his meals there. Wow, did he suddenly want to get to that spot!

As soon as the lightbulb went off, I gradually increased the distance before we got to a new spot. Then I changed the distance and spot every day. Then, when it was clear that he was diggin' the walks, I phased out the meals and replaced them with treats and play. This foster dog is adopted now and a walkin' fool!

Now your dog may not be that extreme, but you see my point? Take something negative and figure out how to make it positive. And don't demand too much too soon. Some people believe in "flooding" a dog like this and just making him suck it up and take whatever you throw at him. Sometimes this works, and sometimes it backfires. The slow steady work takes longer but it has been my experience that it always works.

And I know this is one whopper of a post, but one other thing I'd like to mention to you is that you should really work on building your bond with your dog. With fearful dogs that are doggy, I prefer tethering them to me over crating them a whole lot. Spend as much fun time with the pup solo, but if you're going to be around the other dogs for a short time, have the dog tethered to you and feel free to just get up and walk out of the room...your pup will have to follow and it will make an impression on him. Don't allow your other dogs to play with him or around him...everyone needs manners here.

Gotta go rest my fingers now. Good luck!

 Quote: jennifer marshal

Angella, you don't need the classes for this sort of possitive experience routine for your pup. PetsMart trainers get commission for selling their classes and the equipment they use in those classes. I am not saying it is bad, but it is a waste of money. How do I know? I was employed with PetsMart with the purpose of being a Pet Trainer their. I went through their "testing" and paperwork and watching sessions. Yes it is possitive, yes it can be a good experience but it is a waste of money better spent on equipment, toys, and food and treats for your pack.

I see this, but I was hoping it would be a good socializing opportunity.

 Quote: jennifer marshal

About the time spent - I can understand not having much time and having too many dogs. Having him in a pen with the other dogs even in sight you might as well just have him out playing with them. A doggy pup focuses on other dogs. The more he is around them the longer it will take to bond with you. I understand that he acts fearful in the park - if he is out at night that is understandable behavior, and he doesn't focus on you or show interest in playing because he does not think you will protect him. He needs to bond with you.

Makes sense. I am just really frustrated that I can't spend all day with the dogs. I work Monday to Friday 9 AM to 5:30 PM, I do go home at lunch and let them out to potty, but it doesn't leave me much time with them. I seriously wonder how the other people on the board do it with their six dogs and kids to boot. My dogs are my family and they get ALL of my time. I'm trying to bond with him by walking him and playing with him or sometimes just snuggling or grooming him. My two adults get put in the yard alot.

 Quote: jennifer marshal

Being friendly and not fearful in a pet store is completely different than being friendly and not fearful in a park at night. It may be good for him, you just have to decide if it is money well spent or not. I don't want to sound harsh but if you really have that little amount of time you may be better off finding him a home. I know it is tough, but one thing I learned is the more dogs I have at home affects the work I can do with further rescues - it limits my time to properly rehab and help new dogs and still be fair to my own pack.

If I have to find this puppy a home after telling the rescue I wanted him, my fostering days would be over I really thought I could do this. In any case I am definitely not fostering any more - except the male I've got now, until this pup is an adult and I feel I have the time.

 Quote: amber morgan

Hi Angela,

I think you got started a little late in socializing your pup, but so what? He's not "broken" forever. He's still a young, resiliant guy despite how he may be acting. He can either stay in this fearful rut he's in, or bounce back from it...it is entirely up to you.

By up to you, I mean that you are going to have to decide if you are committed enought (and have enough time) to work with your pup on this. Obviously, you have the inclination and the motivation...but it does take time. So, if you're committed to doing that then you can help your pup, IMO.

I am going to try really hard with this guy, I hope it will work.

 Quote: amber morgan

First of all, I'd personally skip the Petsmart session. I understand your motivation in wanting to go there. But for all the good it might do you, it could easily wind up making the situation worse.

I don't buy the "no playtime" thing. There is no way that Petsmart runs that tight a ship. If one of these people, before after or during the class has a dog that gets a little saucy with your pup, then any work is down the tubes. And it doesn't even have to be in the class...many people bring their dogs to Petsmart to socialize their dogs while they shop, and their version of socializing is very often to let the dogs tangle up together while they're looking the other way at rhinestone leashes and whatnot.

And, IMHO, you and your dog would be better served by work you do together, not through a trainer or a class. "Teaching a dog to focus in the presence of distraction" is NOT the first phase of training...it's one of the last. You don't have your child do his homework at a toy store, right? Too crazy for any solid learning to take place.

Well this I can understand, however my goal here is not to train his obedience commands necessarily, I just want him to have the opportunity to "get out of the house" and do something with me. Does that make sense? I thought of it as an activity we can do together, a structured activity that involves some action, distraction, and strange people in a new environment. I am not going to give him any corrections or expect him to perform commands perfectly. Basically when I take a new dog to class, I learn the activity/exercise in class then I teach the dog at home during the week.

However I find myself very challenged to find this pup things to do and places to go that are not "same old, same old" - I feel he needs new challenges now. I am not worried about "training" him so much as "socializing" him and giving him new opportunities. If I have to pay PetSmart for a training course, well, it is one hour a week that we can "go and do" that's not a parking lot or mall entrance or park.

 Quote: amber morgan

The way to desensitize a pup to new situations is to take him lots of places, but keep him safe. Remember, that's what a pack leader does and it's not what YOU think is safe...it's learning your pup's limits and graduallly increasing those limits.

This is exactly my problem. There just isn't any place to take him other than puppy classes or parking lots/store entrances. When I take him to a large park, we play on the playground or walk but there aren't many people around since it's dark (and usually cold and rainy). If there is someone in the distance or who walks by, the puppy will stop functioning. The problem with being in public is there is no control... I cannot predict if anyone will be where we are and where they will walk and what they will do. (i.e. will it be a gang of noisy teenagers hollering back and forth, or a couple quietly taking a stroll).

 Quote: amber morgan

For now, I would just walk the pup in an area where there are a lot of people. Don't put any demands on the pup other than a forward movement. And walk...don't sit on a bench and allow the pup's mental wheels to spin! Gradually, you can add in brief stops where you talk to another person but that person doesn't engage. Ultimately you can work on having the dog accept pats from people...but I don't personally see a need for that. I don't want strangers petting ME, either! You don't need a dog that wants to go home with everyone, you just want a dog you can take everywhere. Two different things, IMO.

This is good... I'm very detail oriented, so this helps me. There aren't usually a lot of people unless we stand at the Wal-Mart doors. So to recap you are basically saying skip the structured puppy classes and continue with our parking lot/store entrance work? or should I stick to a walk in the park every evening? He likes to play on the playground equipment (when it is deserted, of course )

 Quote: amber morgan

Now your dog may not be that extreme, but you see my point? Take something negative and figure out how to make it positive. The slow steady work takes longer but it has been my experience that it always works.

I was worried about slow steady work with a puppy, as I've heard they need to be socialized by a certain age and/or fear periods or whatever. So specifically - keep working with him in parking lots and at the park, and treat/praise him for brave behaviour? But don't expect to see really brave behaviour until we have bonded more?

 Quote: amber morgan

And I know this is one whopper of a post, but one other thing I'd like to mention to you is that you should really work on building your bond with your dog. With fearful dogs that are doggy, I prefer tethering them to me over crating them a whole lot. Spend as much fun time with the pup solo, but if you're going to be around the other dogs for a short time, have the dog tethered to you and feel free to just get up and walk out of the room...your pup will have to follow and it will make an impression on him. Don't allow your other dogs to play with him or around him...everyone needs manners here.

Well when he is out of his crate or ex-pen he is on harness/leash even in the house. The other two dogs are either outside or in their crates where he can see them. I do not allow him to interact with the adult dogs but he sure would like to.

Thanks for your replies Amber and Jennifer, I really appreciate it. I know I don't have a lot of time to spend with the dogs but I'm going to try and work on this.

To summarize:
- No puppy classes
- Continue with current parking lot/store entrance trips on alternate days (let's say Monday/Wednesday/Friday)
- Continue with walking/playing in public park on alternate days (weekends, Tuesday & Thursday).
- Pup should continue being crated in my bedroom during the day and overnight.

Is this right?