I have a question that is related to a discussion we were having on another thread: The other thread

What does "good nerves" mean? I am inexperienced, and I thought that nerves were a judge of how the dog performs under stress.

How can it be said that a dog has good nerves when it is so prey driven that it is unable to be controlled, unless you use extreme measures such as putting on multiple collars?

And what about this?:

 Quote: RobbinMann

 Quote: Kadi_Thingvall

People that use multiple collars on the dog are not using them all at the same time. Dogs trained this way understand that each location means something different. One collar stim might mean go foward. Another means bite, another means out, or to turn left or right, etc. Since the stim amount can be done very low, it can be as low as a 'nudge'. I don't train with this level of finesse with the collar, but do know some people that do.

Why train this way though? Seriously, I'm not opposed to using an ecollar. I have used them before in the past on my own dogs. However, what type of dog or what type of situation would entail using so many collars? When did giving verbal commands get replaced by hitting a dog in different body spots by an ecollar? If one collar means something different to the dog, why not use a different command rather than a hit w/an ecollar? Are we talking only vibration or sound hits or are we talking shocks?

I agree, why use ecollars to direct the dog? What about your voice? (If you are mute, I am sorry if I offended you...)

Added: Amber, I am very open minded!...LOL

Leerburg Article

Drive Thresholds:
Drive thresholds vary from dog to dog depending on the dog's nerves. A dog with good nerves has a higher threshold than a dog with weak nerves. Weak-nerved dogs have a low threshold for defense. These dogs are very quick to get their hair up on their back and bark at people.

Rick -

Collars and corrections deal with hardness, I think that may be where you are getting confused. Nerves deal with the dogs ability to handle stress - such as pressure from the decoy, or even strange sounds in the house or strange people on a walk. Basic pet definition: A dog with "good nerves"/"solid nerves" bounces back from any initial surprise reaction, quickly.

Say you drop a bag of empty soda cans behind your dog on accident. The dog jumps and spins around... and then looks and sniffs and goes back to what it was doing. This is good nerves. If the dog were to run and hide and be generally traumatized it is considered "weak nerved." There are other levels between super solid and really weak.

Not being an expert, I am sure if I am wrong someone will correct me and welcome them to do so but that is how I view nerves.

Hardness has to do with how much correction a dog takes and how it handles that correction.
Excerpt from: http://www.leerburg.com/pupqa.htm#sharp
"On the other hand a "HARD DOG" does not necessarily mean that a dog is a tough dog. A hard dog has a temperament that can take a correction and not act like you just killed him or hurt his feelings. A hard dog is often a good choice for a person who is big and gruff and not the best of dog trainers. A hard dog is a forgiving dog in terms of a bad trainer because a hard dog is not going to hold a grudge against a trainer that makes a mistake and gives inappropriate corrections.

*On the same hand a hard dog can be a difficult dog to train because as adults these dogs need a level of correction that most people are not willing to give to make them mind.*"

Cajun could easily ignore the best my 200NCP could dish out(level 100) I had to get the 1700 and even that had not been really tested yet. About 99% of the time I did not need to use any stim on Cajun at all, voice was all I needed. But if he was at a good enough distance where my voice was not as powerful or he got involved in a really good smell he would completely ignore the stim. I did not use an Ecollar during bitework but personally do not look down upon those that do. I know Cajun was not the hardest dog on earth, probably not even close and that alone gives me respect for those dogs that are or might be and understand the use of in this case multiple ecollars.

The nerve question has been answered, and I agree, I think you are confusing thresholds with nerve.


I'll try to address some of the other e-collar questions here, in no particular order.

You might want to read some of the posts in the electric collar section of this board, some of the questions have already been answered, with some good explanations.

Waist collars - there are various reasons for this. First, this is a WAIST collar, the idea is not to shock the dogs genitalia (if it's a male). Some dogs have sensitive throats and are easily given to coughing, gagging, etc if a collar is put on very snug, which an e-collar needs to be if it's going to have consistent contact. Some dogs will just knuckle down and take a throat correction at a high setting, while on the waist will let go and turn around to look at where the correction is coming from. Even dogs who don't have a sensitive throat will experience some interference with their breathing while working from a neck collar. And some dogs are taught that stim or vibration on different parts of the body mean different things.

tail collar - basically the same use as the waist collar, some dogs don't like having something around their waist, but don't mind the tail, or vice versa

Multiple collars - when they are working off the same remote, this allows for better contact between collar and dog, without having to have the collar on as tightly, so it interferes less with the dogs movement and breathing.

>> When did giving verbal commands get replaced by hitting a dog in different body spots by an ecollar?

Does having a pinch or choke collar on a dog mean the owner is no longer giving verbal commands? Or does it mean the tool is there to back up the verbal command if the dog chooses to ignore it? The same is true for an electric collar.

>> If one collar means something different to the dog, why not use a different command rather than a hit w/an ecollar?

See my previous statement about just stimming, vs commands.
If my dog understands that a stim on the tail means go forward, a stim on the belly means let go, a stim on the left side of the neck means turn right, etc then if I tell my dog verbally to go forward, I can very precisely correct him if he chooses not to. How many times have you seen a handler tap a dogs rear to make it sit faster? Or poke it in the flank to get it to move it's rear end one direction or another? Or use a leash correction to one side or another to get the dog to move left or right? Or to get the dog to move forward (lagging during heeling) or back up a little. Many (most?) corrections are physical manipulations to get the dog to move in the direction we wanted them to move, be it into another stationary position, or a moving position. The collars are allowing the handler to do the same thing, not just up close but also at a distance, without a leash on.

>> Are we talking only vibration or sound hits or are we talking shocks?

Depends on the dog. Some people use the vibration as a clicker/marker. Others use it as the lowest level of correction. Or it might just be used for guidance, ie "bite now" "turn that way, keep turning keep turning, ok stop", etc Same for the sound that some collars can make.

Not all training is done in close proximity, these collars can have a range of over a mile. If your dog is working a long distance away, do you want to be yelling commands at it, or have another way to give it directions? This might not be as applicable to protection sport or pet dog training, but it definitely is for herding, gun dogs, etc.

I am not by any means primarily an e-collar trainer. For some of my dogs, I use the collar a lot. Other dogs never wear it. It depends on the dog. I'll put the collar on a soft dog as quickly as a hard dog though, for different reasons. For the harder dog, it allows me to correct the dog at all times, so the dog doesn't start thinking they can get away with things. For the soft dog it can remove some of the "personal" from the correction, especially if the dog has an abuse history (prior to me getting it). I have a young female I raised who I use the collar for when herding. Because she started to think when I told her to "stop" she could flip me off. She's high drive, but she's also reasonably handler sensitive, so the trainers solution of walking her down, taking her collar, dragging her back to where I told her to "stop" and making her stop was not something I wanted to do, it was making her jumpy around me. The collar was the perfect solution, I can correct her from a distance, she realizes when I tell her to do something she has to do it, we don't have to stop everything while I hunt her down and correct her, and she doesn't get worried about me doing so either. If this dog never stopped when told, then I'd say we needed to go back to basics and work on that. But when she stops 9 times out of 10, and just once in awhile tries to blow me off, I could repeat the command and she'd probably stop the second time, but that's not the point. I don't want her to learn second time is a charm, I want her to realize she has to do it first time, every time.

 Quote: jennifer marshal

Rick -

Collars and corrections deal with hardness, I think that may be where you are getting confused. Nerves deal with the dogs ability to handle stress - such as pressure from the decoy, or even strange sounds in the house or strange people on a walk. Basic pet definition: A dog with "good nerves"/"solid nerves" bounces back from any initial surprise reaction, quickly.

Say you drop a bag of empty soda cans behind your dog on accident. The dog jumps and spins around... and then looks and sniffs and goes back to what it was doing. This is good nerves. If the dog were to run and hide and be generally traumatized it is considered "weak nerved." There are other levels between super solid and really weak.

Not being an expert, I am sure if I am wrong someone will correct me and welcome them to do so but that is how I view nerves.

This is what I thought. I appriciate that explanation.

So, when the dog is misbehaving by going after the helper without the handler's permission, what is this called? And, why don't they say, this dog is too driven, and can't do the work without getting extrodinary compulsion, so we shouldn't do the work with the dog?

 Quote: jennifer marshal

Hardness has to do with how much correction a dog takes and how it handles that correction.
Excerpt from: http://www.leerburg.com/pupqa.htm#sharp
"On the other hand a "HARD DOG" does not necessarily mean that a dog is a tough dog. A hard dog has a temperament that can take a correction and not act like you just killed him or hurt his feelings. A hard dog is often a good choice for a person who is big and gruff and not the best of dog trainers. A hard dog is a forgiving dog in terms of a bad trainer because a hard dog is not going to hold a grudge against a trainer that makes a mistake and gives inappropriate corrections.

*On the same hand a hard dog can be a difficult dog to train because as adults these dogs need a level of correction that most people are not willing to give to make them mind.*"

Cajun could easily ignore the best my 200NCP could dish out(level 100) I had to get the 1700 and even that had not been really tested yet. About 99% of the time I did not need to use any stim on Cajun at all, voice was all I needed. But if he was at a good enough distance where my voice was not as powerful or he got involved in a really good smell he would completely ignore the stim. I did not use an Ecollar during bitework but personally do not look down upon those that do. I know Cajun was not the hardest dog on earth, probably not even close and that alone gives me respect for those dogs that are or might be and understand the use of in this case multiple ecollars.

I am confused, because some people are talking about high-level stim, and some are talking about low-level stim. Here, you are saying these dogs are able to work through the high-level stim, thus justifying the use of multiple ecollars. My question is why should these dogs be doing the work anyway if it requires such treatment?

Rick - a dog with low/no drive would not do well at all as a PPD or in most sport work. It would be like racing miniature horses instead of Thoroughbreds or Quarter Horses or Arabs - sure, they'll finish, eventually...

I understand all uses of Ecollars, multiple ecollars, multiple collars period for all the reasons that have been listed, I did not list those reasons because they had already been listed in the previous thread. Not needing the collar to be so tight for proper contact, etc.

I put that explanation for threshhold/hardness and the example of Cajun because that is what I thought you were confusing for nerves. When I work with dogs and I use an Ecollar I don't just zap them at the highest level I think they can take - even hard dogs do not always need high level, a stim to me is like a tap with two fingers, but available at a great distance. A reminder.. a hey over there! etc

One thing also is that when a dog is in drive its threshhold seems to increase versus "normal" work. A dog that has a normal/every day level of about 30 might need a 90 when working/in drive.

Hard dogs are both better and worse IMO. Better as for a newbie or a heavy handed trainer they are more forgiving of the correction, worse because they do need so much at times. Sport dogs and real PPDs there is a possibility these dogs could get hurt, I would personally prefer a dog that was harder and could take more versus a softer dog with a lower thresh hold. Not saying a soft dog is incapable!! and I would not want a dog so hard that it required a correction so hard that I was not capable of giving.


Imagine a dog that can run head first into a tree and keep going to get the ball that was just thrown - some dogs would tuck tail and shake their head and lose drive for the ball. If it takes very little to drop a dog out of drive (either from poor training or weak/soft temperament) it won't do well as any sort of PPD or higher level sport dog.

I think some people confuse handler sensitivity with softness at times. A dog can be mindful and take a lower correction from the handler and ignore and take a super hard correction from someone else. Duke is like this, very sensitive to every hand motion, my body language, and any verbal cue let alone a collar correction... but only with my brother, aunt, and I. He does not respect my uncle, or two of my older cousins and even when they yelled at him once and before I could catch her, got hit upside the head with a flashlight(long story, I don't like this cousin) he didn't react at all. Cajun was also a dog that was much more sensitive to me than anyone else, a level 3 with a prong from me was usually enough(depending on the situation), but a level 8 or 9 from my brother was completely ignored.

Hopefully I won't get burnt at the stake for what I've said here I am not experienced with bitework or the training of PPDs etc, I only have what I have seen, been around, and my experiences working with Cajun to go on.

I understand nerves (as Jennifer Marshal explained it), drive threshold, hardness and softness. The reason the dog going after the helper is not related to nerves is because, unlike the hypothetical can in Jennifer's example, the helper is the object that the dog is going after, whilst the can is nothing but a distraction.

But, I still don't see how the belly collar is going to help in this situation. Is it a special belly correction that the dog knows is for trying to get the helper w/o permission?

Jennifer, you said the dogs need a higher level stem when they are in drive. Why don't you just increase the level of stem on the neck collars to match the level of drive that the dog has?

Jennifer,

I am not sure it was you that opened this can of worms. I think it was me and my feeble attempt to explain why there would be two collars on a dog. And it was I that mentioned the belly collar.....

In general:

Not sure I should have mentioned anything, because I think...unless you have seen the kind of dogs I am speaking of, it is rather hard to explain it type and also rather difficult for some people to imagine.

It is, however a valid dog training discussion so I enjoy the lengthy posts and have learned quite a bit since I understand the concept.

Not to offend anyone else who has never worked around these types of dogs at all, but like I said above, once you have been around a dog that can work through a serious correction or a dog that gets pissed with a serious correction with a "neck" stim....it is hard to imagine why a handler may need to do this.

Out of the many, many dogs I have watched, there has only been three that needed more than one collar, so it is not all that common. At least from where I come from.

I wish I had video of the dogs I am talking about, but all I have are still shots....

Rick - I can't answer those, I have never directly dealt with a dog that had been trained with multiple ecollars or a belly band. As far as different stim in different areas meaning different things, that to me is the same as a different word being a different command.

For increasing the stim on the neck collar to match.. sometimes you can't. You cannot match the drive, the dog ignores everything that collar has to dish out. Nothing one ecollar can do will matter, even cont. stim. at max level.

With regards to two collars, I do not think the point is always for a double whammy affect, it is for a more even distribution. It is easier to ignore someone tapping you on one shoulder but if they tap you on both shoulders it is more difficult to ignore.

Another thing is that to work properly most ecollars need to be quite tight. It affects the dogs ability to breath and work, with two collars you can leave them looser and thus more comfortable for the dog and more capable to work as there are more contact points available. That has already been pointed out by Kadi.

I have no experience with a belly band or with not being able to control a dog going for a decoy at the inappropriate time. I have never used a belly band or multiple ecollars.

I see nothing wrong with using two ecollars on the neck for all the reasons you have all described, but:

 Quote: jennifer marshal

For increasing the stim on the neck collar to match.. sometimes you can't. You cannot match the drive, the dog ignores everything that collar has to dish out. Nothing one ecollar can do will matter, even cont. stim. at max level.

So these dogs have so much drive that you can max out on continuous two ecollars on the neck, and they will work through it?! Wow...

Please tell me we aren't talking sport dogs, here...

Kind of leads back to:

 Quote: jennifer marshal

Rick - a dog with low/no drive would not do well at all as a PPD or in most sport work. It would be like racing miniature horses instead of Thoroughbreds or Quarter Horses or Arabs - sure, they'll finish, eventually...

Well, it started as a "horse race." All of the people from this particular area had minatures, so that was what they raced. But during the third annual, ol Bob from the next county brought his Quarter Horse, and just whooped em'! So, every year after that less and less miniture horses were racing until none were ever seen again...

It seems to me that everyone could be trying to up the ante with regards to prey drive in their dogs. If the dog is fighting through a continuous stim on max to get to the prey/helper, why not reevaluate whether or not you want to use the kind of force required (apparently more than a max continuous stim) to keep this dog in line?

This kind of thing sets a precedent that first, you have to get a dog bread for a goofy amount of prey drive. Then, when the dog is disobeying due to it's freaky prey drive the dog has to go through all of this...for points?!