Hello all. My nine month old working GSD began itching excessively in mid-November and it has not subsided. He had recently been kenneled so he was put on Revolution in the event he had picked up some fleas or mites. But the vet ruled out fleas and said mites were possible as they could not be visible to the eye, although none were seen when hair samples were evaluated under a microscope. Well, both have been ruled out now. He's had no hair loss. When he itches, it's usually behind his elbow or behind the ear - but sometimes it's anywhere he can reach. There is no sign of an ear infection. He doesn't focus on one spot, and likes to be "itched" anywhere, and certain spots activate a reflex where his rear leg reciprocates as though he's doing the itching. On my own accord, I switched him from National competition to Canidae (All Life Stages formula) in early December. We supplement the Canidae dry with 1/2 can of wet per day. He's been to the vet several times and the vet's solutions chronologically have been: prednizone (which was ineffective and I would not do again - also this resulted in urination difficulties), and most recently a switch to a prescription food (which seems less helpful than the Canidae IMO). The vet stated that this was not likely due to allergies as they typically would not develop at this age. The vet also mentioned that some dogs can reflexively "itch". Has anyone seen this personally? I'll be going back to the Canidae tomorrow, since he seemed slightly better. At this point, it's my belief that it was the change in the weather with drier air. But there is no flaking of the skin and the vet says his skin looks okay. I'm going to pick up some salmon oil as a supplement as well as vitamin E. I've also dug out the humidifier for the bedroom as some have said this may help. The humidity in the house reads 60% and I should mention I have a humidifier on the furnace. I vacuum just about every day, the carpet is clean and I don't use cleaning products on the ceramic floor. Do any of you have any other suggestions or ideas of causal factors? Artoo could really use your help. The next step may be to see a specialist in dermatology.

Thanks in advance....

Hi Ryan, Welcome to the Forum!

My thoughts would be what vaccines have the dog received; it could be a response from those. Also, although Canidae is a good food it does have grains in it that could aggravate the problem. I would consider putting him on either a raw diet, a grain free food like the Honest Kitchen Force or one of the other good grain free foods. Definitely get him on the Salmon Oil and Vit E that will help him a lot and hopefully keep him from getting worse.

Good Luck,

I've also had good luck with adding a good yogurt to the diet. I use Mountain High, it has six active cultures. Kefir is good too. The more active cultures, the better. The probiotics in yogurt are good for the digestion and help boost the immune system. My sons dog had a severe itching problem and we cured it by putting him on Canidae, adding yogurt, and giving benedryl twice daily until the hot spots cleared up. He is a different dog now.

But like Peggy says, if he is very grain sensetive you may end up getting a grain free food or going RAW.

Ryan,

Have to run to a morning class, but some quick thoughts.

This may not be a quick fix. A suggestion that's been very helpful for me is to keep a log or diary of everything you feed, supplements, meds, weather changes, etc. Without one, after a while, everything runs together and you'll have more trouble trying to figure out what does/doesn't work.

Maybe not what you want to hear right now, but there's a ton of threads on this subject and lots of Ed's articles re: feeding, recommended com'l food, etc. I start going through some of that. Dogs do not have the enzyme to process grain, so I'd look for a grain-free kibble for starters.

How long have you had the dog? How long after you got him did itching start? Is he originally from your area or elsewhere?

How long was he on pred? Dosage? No change, huh?

My very last choice would be a vet's prescription kibble. Just above that is a vet dermatologist, at least at this point. Expect that to be very costly and give fairly inconclusive results. You can probably fix this yourself with info you read here and get from some knowledgeable forum members.

Do you have another pet named Detoo?

More later.

Mike

Agree w/Peggy, Shody, and Mike. I had one allergic dog (turned out to be vaccinosis and the result of a damaged small intestine due to a botched spay) and she is totally different on all raw w/Probiotics. I use Primal Defense Ultra, but before it, I use Fungal Defense (both Garden of Life brand) to get rid of the excess yeast that is often/usually present (candida). 2 weeks on Fungal Defense, then give Primal Defense, and now she has zero issues. I never did feed her grain, which is why it was so confusing, but it turned out that her gut was just such a mess from the shots and surgery that it was letting all kinds of irritants/allergens through.

Good luck, Ryan.

Keep up w/the Wild Salmon oil and vitamin E. Best anti-inflammatory out there, IMO.

Edited by Jenni Williams (01/19/2008 10:26 AM)
Edit reason: Forgot sumthin'

The vet said it was not allergies but "Here, buy this prescription food I happen to sell anyway?"

Sorry...... that so jumped out at me.

I wanted to let you know that all dogs have that reflex that you mentioned when you scratch certain spots.

The best food is a good start. Using part canned, as you mentioned, if you're using kibble, is very good. (Fresh, if you can, is the best.)

Fish oil and E are great. (A gram, or 1000 mg, per ten pounds of dog, on the fish oil, and a 200 or 400 IU vitamin E for this pup would be good.)

I also want to say that the vet is incorrect about allergies not likely at 9 months. That was true even as recently as a decade ago. It's not true now. Six months is not unusual.

I would follow all the steps Mike mentioned, start that fish oil right away, and also bathe the dog and his bedding if you think there was any chance in November when this started that he brought some kind of pollen/grasses inside (I know -- probably not, where you live).

The log is crucial.

I'd also make sure he isn't scratching out of boredom/frustrated energy (more exercise?), and keep a good eye on his ears. I'd watch for any inflammation between the toes or itchy paws.

And I imagine you check for flea dirt.... Even one exposure can make a flea-sensitive dog crazy.

I know this sounds scatter-shot ---- it is. It doesn't quite sound like typical atopy, so I'd be watching and logging.

And WELCOME to the board!!

I certainly appreciate all of the good advice, and the quick responses. He's been with me since I picked him up at the breeder's in Ohio. It's a very reputable breeder/importer. From 9 weeks until mid-November (a little over 7 months of age), he almost never scatched. I didn't mean the vet had ruled out allergies, they just don't know at this stage. Hence the hypo-allergenic food. He hasn't been on the Canidae very long (vet said 6-8 weeks to see improvement is likely), and like I mentioned the National I was feeding had a far higher grain content (corn) than the Canidae. I did notice an improvement with the Canidae dry/wet. So, I guess I will continue feeding that for now along with salmon oil and Vit E AND keep a log. We had a warm weather spell last week and I saw an improvement. The last couple days have been quite cold and he seems more bothered.
Obviously, he's had his puppy vaccinations, but nothing since. He didn't have any around mid-November which leads me to believe it may be the weather/furnace running.
He was on pred for 3 weeks. One 5mg tablet twice a day for a week, then once a day for a week, then 1 every other day. I noticed very little improvement, if at all and like I mentioned it caused problems with his urination. No more pred....
We will try salmon oil, vit E, and yogurt along with Canidae dry/wet for a while before we see a dermatologist. Hopefully that won't become necessary. If I see no improvement with this plan I will start with a grain free food, and those supplements. Does this sound like a reasonable plan of action to you all?
Again, I appreciate the advice and especially the brand names you guys are using. That helps us a lot. Artoo says thanks as well and with your help I hope we can solve this issue. Artoo (R2) doesn't have a counterpart right now (like C3PO) but when he's a handful I sometimes call him the full R2D2!

Thanks to you all....

Sounds good, Ryan.

Don't think that I am picking on your vet. MOST vets know almost nothing about allergies or nutrition.

Suspecting allergies and starting with Pred and RX food is exactly what most vets do, but it's so far off the mark.....

1. Food allergies are by far the least likely of all canine allergies;
2. The only way to diagnose a food allergy is with a strict elimination diet;
3. Trials of antihistamines are a step one takes BEFORE Pred, which (although sometimes needed, yes) is a last resort because of the side effects.

So again, while your vet is not unusual in his/her response at all, the response is a clue to you that this is not a vet who is up on either allergies or nutrition.

I noticed the comment about "reputable breeder." An allergic dog is often bred because of a breeding that takes place before the allergies present. So even if your dog does turn out to have allergies, chances are that the breeder was not remiss. Your responsibility, if allergies are indeed present, is to report to the breeder so the parents of your dog are not bred again.

It's generally accepted in the vet med world that susceptibility to allergies has a big genetic component.

The reason everyone is stressing excellent food is this: Even though true canine food allergies are far less likely than flea hypersensitivity and inhalant/environmental allergies, excellent food is an immune aid, and allergies are an immune response. Grain-heavy foods, in particular, are a daily stress on a dog's system, which does not naturally produce the grain-processing enzymes (like amylase) that humans do.

But again, your dog's symptoms are not classic atopy symptoms, so your log is going to be invaluable.

I agree, Connie - the vet is clueless on nutrition and allergies IMO.
I think it's a great point that excellent food is an immune aid - and with the supplements mentioned previously I'm hoping to get him back to normal. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm under the impression that although Canidae may have SOME grain, it would not be considered to be "grain heavy".
That being said, and assuming the itching is an immune deficiency/issue, are allergies the culprit? Isn't it more likely that the other factors (i.e. heat, dry weather, flea hypersensitivity) are probably the issue at this point? I'm a little slow today
If after a while it looks like an allergy is the problem, then I will let the breeder know. It was the dam's last litter as she was a bit older, a west german import (schHIII/FH), so that's not a problem. The sire is an east german import (SchHIII), out of a very well known kennel in east germany. Given that allergies have a big genetic component, are they always present in the sire/dam or might this be recessive?
I promise not to annoy anyone later on a RAW diet, without reading a ton of threads first. Having been on other forums, annoying newbies who don't do any homework aren't taken too seriously

Thanks again everyone

 Quote:

I promise not to annoy anyone later on a RAW diet, without reading a ton of threads first. Having been on other forums, annoying newbies who don't do any homework aren't taken too seriously

Don't worry too much Randy, I read it all, and still felt the need to ask a million questions. They are pretty tolerent of us newbies!

It is a big decision, or at least it was for me, and I am doing it as we speak. So far, so good. Good luck with your dog!