I don't know if I should be under health or diet, but a customer of mine just found out her 7 yr old poodle is diabetic. The vet put it on insulin, and the dog is overweight, so the vet told her to put it on some Fit n' Trim or Science Diet Light. I was trying to be nice when I said she shouldn't feed that, there is too much grain in it, and she looked kind of blank and said but that's what the vet said to feed her, that's what I have to do. Doesn't grain turns to sugar, or am I wrong??? She was pretty shook up so I didn't want to get her any more upset so I told her I would do some research and see what I could find out. She recently lost her husband, and her dog being ill is just too much for her.
She was feeding Pedigree and Iams before.
I'm only on day 8 of a raw diet with my dogs, and I suggested doing that, and she didn't seem opposed to the idea. I said it isn't very difficult, but I don't know what a diabetic dog should or shouldn't have, and I sure don't want it to be my fault if something happens to it. But I know anything has to be better than what the vet suggested. Any one help? She is an older lady, with limited income, and even though it is only a small dog, I know 70+ dollars for THK would be insane to suggest.

You are right, Sue. Grain is bad. Grain for a diabetic dog is VERY BAD. Vets! ARGH. THK sounds expensive at first, but keep in mind how much it rehydrates to. A grain-free kibble would be next best, in which case I'd suggest Timberwolf or Orijen over Evo, only from an ease of transition and longterm results perspective. It will last a Poodle forever. My cousin's doxie was waaay overweight, borderline diabetic, and nothing made him lose any weight. Wild and Natural Dry was what worked for him. He has been perfectly proportioned for the last year+ now. Other grain-free formulas didn't work as well; she may have to try a few things, but it was FAST for him.

Does she have computer access? Why not print out the diet/menu pages? It's cheap to feed a small dog raw.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

You are right, Sue. Grain is bad. Grain for a diabetic dog is VERY BAD. Vets! ARGH.

This is such simple science... WHY is it so impossible for vets to wrap their head around the GIANT PROBLEM with kibbles based on grain???!! ESPECIALLY in the case of an overweight, diabetic dog?? It sort of leaves me speechless, and sad.

Sue, Jenni made some great suggestions - there is a LOT this woman could do for her dog that would be a million times better than Science Diet (oh the HORROR!!!), and NOT break the bank. Trust me, if this dog takes a turn for the worse on a better quality food, it WON'T be because it wasn't eating Science Diet!!

Good luck!

-Natalya

I made print outs for myself of the diet plans, I just wasn't sure if it was appropriate for a diabetic dog. I don't want to give bad advice, but I knew the vet suggestions were just plain wrong.
One of my friend's husband is diabetic, and it was no bread, no pasta- which to me is no grain. If it is no grain for a person, I reasoned it would be no grain for a diabetic dog. But, really I already know it is no grain for any dog, one of the many reasons I finally switched to raw myself. I'm doing it for 4 shepherds and it is going so well... one little dog would be easy.

More info is needed.

Does the dog also have chronic pancreatitis, which is pretty commonly paired with canine diabetes? Weight and pancreatitis are two big diabetes factors.

Did the vet mention soluble fiber (to slow the absorption of glucose)?

Yes, it's pretty universally accepted that weight control is a high priority and, as posters have pointed out, that simple sugars and starches are harmful to a diabetic dog.

Fats and proteins don't have the glycemic response that simple sugars and starches have. What is the pancreas situation, though?

P.S. I'm with everyone on the awfulness of commercial "reducing" dog foods.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071205164225AA4jD4H

Not to take this thread too far off topic, I do have a couple of suggestions for your friend. Having had two dogs with Diabetes with both being insulin dependent, I would highly recommend that your friend buy a glucose monitor so she can test her dog’s glucose level at home prior to administering the insulin. I saw a couple years ago that one was being created specifically for dogs but I don’t know if it has come out yet. A human monitor works just as well. I would take the dog in for a couple of blood tests and test the monitor against the numbers the vet comes up with since human blood reads differently then the dog’s blood. The glucose numbers on the monitor will either show a little higher or lower then what his/her actual glucose numbers will be and this is important to know. This will save her a lot of money in the long run with trips to the vets while trying to regulate how much insulin the dog needs. It is also very handy for the times when the dog seems to be acting off, she can do a quick check at home rather then run to the vet for them to draw the blood and test. She can draw the blood from the lip and it really is a lot easier on the dog then having the vet draw it from the legs.

She can get a prescription from the vet and buy the insulin from Wal Mart, it will be cheaper. Then order the test strips from a Diabetic Supple Company; it is much cheaper then buying them from a place like Wal Mart.

Tell her not to administer the insulin until after the dog has eaten and to get a bottle of Karo Syrup to keep in the house.

I also agree with everyone else to get that dog on a grain free diet.

I am not a vet, but did gain a lot of hands on experience with my own dogs. JMHO

Connie
she never said anything about pancreatitis, just high glucose level 400 plus. The dog was having trouble walking and would slide itself over to the water bowl instead of walk.
A lyme test came back negative.
She said the dog wasn't urinating much for the high water consumption. No fiber mention. Only other thing she said the vet said was to start with a small dose of insulin and work her way up to a full dose and if she wanted to give the dog a treat give it a carrot. She was pretty shaken up, so maybe she missed telling me some things. I will try and call her for more info, and I can mail her info also so she wouldn't have to make a trip to town.

Peggy
wonderful ideas, and it will help her to know what someone else has done. That always eases a person's anxiety.

 Quote: Sue Kobus

I will try and call her for more info, and I can mail her info also so she wouldn't have to make a trip to town.

OK, that would be good.


She has a computer? One thing that might help a LOT is joining one of the support groups.

A carrot? I'd probably recommend considering a holistic vet or a vet with some nutrition background, because of the emphasis I see everywhere on no high-sugar (or flour) between-meal treats, and the importance of regular meals of similar makeup and size (as well as regular daily exercise of the same approximate duration and effort, as opposed to nothing for two days and then a big effort all at once) .... i.e., very good scheduling in order to get the blood sugar (and insulin) as level as possible.

I might be wrong, but I'm thinking that carrots, which are high in natural sugar, might not be the best idea for a between-meal treat, at an empty-stomach time and with no fat or protein to level out its effect on blood sugar.

Peggy? Do you know about that?

 Quote: PeggyBayer

Not to take this thread too far off topic, I do have a couple of suggestions for your friend. Having had two dogs with Diabetes with both being insulin dependent, I would highly recommend that your friend buy a glucose monitor so she can test her dog’s glucose level at home prior to administering the insulin. I saw a couple years ago that one was being created specifically for dogs but I don’t know if it has come out yet. A human monitor works just as well. I would take the dog in for a couple of blood tests and test the monitor against the numbers the vet comes up with since human blood reads differently then the dog’s blood. The glucose numbers on the monitor will either show a little higher or lower then what his/her actual glucose numbers will be and this is important to know. This will save her a lot of money in the long run with trips to the vets while trying to regulate how much insulin the dog needs. It is also very handy for the times when the dog seems to be acting off, she can do a quick check at home rather then run to the vet for them to draw the blood and test. She can draw the blood from the lip and it really is a lot easier on the dog then having the vet draw it from the legs.

She can get a prescription from the vet and buy the insulin from Wal Mart, it will be cheaper. Then order the test strips from a Diabetic Supple Company; it is much cheaper then buying them from a place like Wal Mart.

Tell her not to administer the insulin until after the dog has eaten and to get a bottle of Karo Syrup to keep in the house.

I also agree with everyone else to get that dog on a grain free diet.

I am not a vet, but did gain a lot of hands on experience with my own dogs. JMHO

I don't think this is off-topic at all.

The monitor sounds like the best thing..... that means you know about problems way before you see physical symptoms, right?

Yes, IMO the monitor is a must have item. We didn't know we could use it with the first dog and can't tell you how many trips to the vet it took to get him on track. His glucose was over 500 when dianosed and we had a heck of a time just getting it down. Anyway, being able to monitor him at home gave me peace of mind that I could keep closer track on how he was doing.

Can't believe the vet recommended a carrot as a treat for a dog with glucose level over 400, anything that can turn to sugar must not be fed to that dog unless it's glucose drops down to low.