Hi,
Althought I have been in dog training for many years & my dog has won CDX but I am new kids on the block in Schutzhund & Protection training. I have doing reseach & readin up a lot on this, I am hooked. I have just ordered a couple DVD from Leerburg.

I need some expert to advise me what exactly the difference between Schutzhund & Protection training, I know Schutzhund is a sport and protection is for real. However, does it really have any different in term of the training ? Can a Schutzhund trained dog be a protection dog ?

I am also confused with the term use in home protection and police protection. can someone advise me ?

Appreciate your help. many thanks.

 Quote: Stanley Yee

Hi,
I need some expert to advise me what exactly the difference between Schutzhund & Protection training, I know Schutzhund is a sport and protection is for real. However, does it really have any different in term of the training ? Can a Schutzhund trained dog be a protection dog ?

I am also confused with the term use in home protection and police protection. can someone advise me ?

All protection training should start about the same, whether its SchH, KNPV, Police or Personal Protection. The only differences come much later in the dog's training, and this is much more heavily dependent on what the dog brings to the table vs. what the handler wants. All protection dog candidates, sport or otherwise, need to be 1) capable of chasing, biting & tugging, 2) learn success in doing those things, and 3) enjoy do it and be made to feel stronger & more powerful as a result of their success.

The dog's aggression and 'anger management' need to be assessed later.

A sport dog can be a 'protection dog' and vice versa, it depends, first, on the dog, then on the training.

John, thanks for the advise. I know it could be a bit pre-mature to ask but just to prepare myself, you mentioned :

"this is much more heavily dependent on what the dog brings to the table vs. what the handler wants"

Are you referring that
a. a protection dog has to be more courage then a Schutzhund dog, and won't back-off e.g. the "bad guy" really fights back using a metal stick ?

b. the intensity of the bite, how firm the dog bites ?

c. or are you actually referring to other thing ?

Regards

Stanley,

Being a beginner myself, I've finally articulated what the "problem" with protection training is, and why this matter is pervasively confusing for people like us.

"Personal protetion" or "protection training" sounds like something which may have time-honored, objective standards because those terms are always tossed around the venues where Schutzhund and Police K9s are mentioned. One must say to himself: "Well, there seems to be pretty clear rules and objectives in Schutz, Police, and Ring dogs....so I'm guessing there's also standard template for creating a protection dog. Well, depending on who you talk to, not neccesarily. I'm guessing that's why there are so many WIERDOS are attracted to this kind of training. Just say you train "personal protection dogs" so you can qualify all your bizarro training methods relative to everything else.

You're going to find people who defend some really screwball training methods on the web and elsewhere. However, that's no problem to explain. They just say: "Remember, we aren't training for police, or sport. This is REAL. This is the STREET." Meanwhile, the other fork in their tongue is speaking of their quasi-association (i.e. I gotta buddy who's a cop, hurhur) with police and sport dogs to lend themselves credibility.

Got another screwball method? No problem. Just insert some vague, anthropomorphic analogy, which explains nothing but'll satisfy a polite inquiry.

Be careful down this road, and do your research.

I believe John is referring to the dog's genetic ability. It ultimately boils down to that.

To do a loose comparison.

Training for Schutzhund is kinda like training someone for a Martial Art.

A person can go to training and he knows he's gonna learn, win, and not get hurt by his trainer.

A person can go to a competition and he knows its not "real", he's done it 1000 times and he knows roughly what to expect from the opponent who is also fighting out of the same training.

Some people will lose every fight they get into on the street even though they do well in martial arts. Other people will be great at fighting both in competition and in "real" fights. Some people will be great at "real" fights but have a personality disorder that makes it difficult for them to control themselves when it comes to sport. But thats a whole 'nother type of dog

Dogs and dog sports are the same. Dogs are not stupid, they know the guy who's sleeve they are biting isn't going to kill them. They know the routine and what to expect. Schutzhund is a pattern, even the protection phase of Schutzhund is basically a long obedience routine that the dog has done many many times.

Some dogs are born with the genetics to be natural soldiers. Others aren't but can still do sports.

There are other sports than Schutzhund that are more challenging and "test" the dog more, but at the end of the day, sport is sport and the dog isn't stupid.

Steven mentioned how one would expect that protection training is done to a certain standard. I wish this was true, unfortunately nobody could ever agree on a standard. Afterall, look at how many biting sports there are and how much debate there is about one sport vs. the other.

The biggest mistake a new handler can make is trusting a trainer just because he is a master trainer. There are alot of crappy trainers and training methods out there. There are also alot of trainers who are happy to take your money and will do "whatever it takes" to make an unsuitable dog "work", and alot of trainers who won't do much at all, take your money, and convince you that because your dog bites a sleeve that he is now a killer protection dog.

Do alot of research and be realistic about what your dog is.

 Quote: stanley yee

John, thanks for the advise. I know it could be a bit pre-mature to ask but just to prepare myself, you mentioned :

"this is much more heavily dependent on what the dog brings to the table vs. what the handler wants"

Are you referring that
a. a protection dog has to be more courage then a Schutzhund dog, and won't back-off e.g. the "bad guy" really fights back using a metal stick ?

b. the intensity of the bite, how firm the dog bites ?

c. or are you actually referring to other thing ?

Regards

Mike explained it very well. Many dogs bite well in the sport because its fun, they always win, and they are never threatened by the helper or feel threatened feel threatened (=pressure) from the helper. I differentiate the later because many decoys do not/or cannot threaten the dogs they work. Also, there are some dogs that do not perceive the threat, even when it is there; while more serious dogs bring power and aggression regardless of whether the decoy is really pressuring them or not...these dogs will also tend to ramp up their aggressive response. There are SchH dogs that can bring it & be a Police Dog or PPD, there are also many that cannot.

There are very few people in this country that I would trust to do a Personal Protection dog. First, the vast majority of people who think they want a PPD, actually don't want or need one. Secondly, because of the lack of standardization, a lot of people have opinions on the subject, but very, very few have any relavent experience to back up their opinions.

Thanks all for the valuable feedback. At least I have a better picture now.

Good Read! Also look up civil agitation. Yes there are many views, but be careful who you use.


Sgt Matt

I thought at one point I wanted to do protection work with the dog that I would eventually get, but I learned from Cindy and Ed that I really don't want that dog or need that dog, at all.

Brenna has enough natural bent to protect her stuff/pack without being a unknown comodity around my friends to be perfect. She's sweet and loving with everyone until she senses that I'm on alert or something totally out of the ordinary is going on, then she's on alert by herself and watching "it" and me...which is exactly what I want.

I think she can do Sch1 and maybe 2, but she will not be doing any real world protection work ever.

be careful what you wish for I guess is all I'm saying all the best!

 Quote: stanley yee

Hi,
Althought I have been in dog training for many years & my dog has won CDX but I am new kids on the block in Schutzhund & Protection training. I have doing reseach & readin up a lot on this, I am hooked. I have just ordered a couple DVD from Leerburg.

I need some expert to advise me what exactly the difference between Schutzhund & Protection training, I know Schutzhund is a sport and protection is for real. However, does it really have any different in term of the training ? Can a Schutzhund trained dog be a protection dog ?

I am also confused with the term use in home protection and police protection. can someone advise me ?

Appreciate your help. many thanks.

OK,
I am gonna jump in.
first, let me give you a bit of background so you can have some context to my post. I am working as a law enforcement handler and instructor and have been for ...... well a while. i have been involved in schutzhund even longer and I started with an interest in personal protection. I have dabbled in Ring sport as well (and doing more these days as club members ask me to help them with MR).

Schutzhund protection work is a choreographed routine that has its roots in police work (as does ring sport). Like many things such as competitive shooting and even some equestrian events (think Lipizans) have a history with roots in military or law enforcement. The desire to create a competetive atmosphere and a set of standardized rules to fit the human competetive nature moves the events away from practicality. the result is schutzhund is an over concern for things that can be judged, like full grips, like perfect barking, like how close a dog can get in the guard phase without touching (oh and that's such a good example). In the case of the protection dog as we have here the desire to compete and fulfill all the requirements of obtaining top scores has over ridden the practical nature of the work. Itelligent trainers have developed techniques which leave the practical portion in the dust opting for points in both training and genetics. Today there is still over lap in the police dog/sport dog world but it is being lessoned all the time. i for one am a hold out and title my police dogs in schutzhund (now called VpG further distancing itself from protection). i do not do it with concern for choreography or high points, my critters wouldn't know a schutzhund routine to save them. The behaviors are similiar enough to overlap and to the casual observer they wouldn't see anything out of the ordinary on the trial field really. But, intent in training and the intent from the dog is shifted (I will say it is "old fashioned"). The dog knows it is not "for real" on the schutzhund field, for that reason much of the training exists off the field and with a shift towards a different focus than most sport dogs come to the field with. For most police dogs on a trial field it is combat with a man, they know which one every time they see a sport field, for most sport dogs today the dogs contest the decoy over a big toy, a sleeve. yet there can be a middle of the road where the skilled instructor never allows the dog to not see the decoy as anything less than the focus of the work. It is done less and less today in my observations. This type pf dog is easily convinced to take it off the field, it is easily moved towards practical behaviors, where many of todays sport dogs experience culture shock when the decoy directly challenges them, in particular challenges them off the field....it "feels" different for these dogs.
Now to make it even more complex where the dog falls in these catagories is based not only on the training but also the genetics and rearing of the dog. Some dogs are serious by nature others are not and fall into the sport routine of things quite naturally, others cannot do either and fail of limp along miserably whatever direction they are taken.

An earlier poster used martial arts as an example: as an old traditional martial artist I want to puke at the routines that I see displayed on ESPN sponsered by some hair care co. and called martial arts. It is insulting. I see that schutzhund is moving that way, and yet even in these martial arts competitions you find one or two competitors with a practical background and the ability to shift gears.
The use of modern martial arts in a street conflict is questionable at best, even much of the current trend towards MMA is useless or at least dangerous in a street conflict, it takes a skilled practitioner to know where these lines are and how to work with them to benefit the participant. The same is true with sport dog training.

now, personal protection work. the vast majority of professional personal protection training isn't worth the time spent on it.
Those interested should find a sport and a knowledgeable instructor who is willing to help in a bit of crossover training where needed and if suitable for that dog/handler team.

Does it work? yep, just ask one of my club members whose dog trapped a burglar from the neighboring business inside of a car until law enforcement arrived to take over. She and her dog had 2 training sessions at her business where she lived AFTER she attined her first title.