Puppy training question...I never run out of them!
I am planning on starting the puppy classes/hooking up with a schutzhund crowd in Dec. Until then, I still need help so I don't ruin puppy man.
He is getting physically very strong. I have a sense that he is just a bit of a knucklehead as well. Not dumb, just...can be a hard head. Lots of challenges, will try to outlast me on some issues. I am hesitant to use corrections on him until I have a trainer to advise, but i think we (pup and I) have reached the point where his size, strength, barking, and play desires must be controlled on leash or a disaster is imminent.
I have allowed him to be a wild man on leash, as long as we continue more or less forward motion. I want him to have fun with me.
But he's getting too strong now. He is just shy of four moths old, is now weighing close to forty pounds. He doesn't respond to leash snaps (worked for every other dog I've had). I have just a regular nylon collar for him and I WILL NOT go to a choke, so no one needs to suggest it.
When we train at home, he is good and responsive off leash. He does lots more than I thought a pup this age would do. Always for treats, although if he hears me working the other dog, he comes and copies her for no reward.
Outside the house, he's a frigging tornado. Will not pay attention and lunges and barks, leaps, makes mad dashes sideways, etc. I can't get him to do anything outside, because he is entirely distracted by everything. I will tell adults who want to pet him sure, but to expect to be jumped up on. For kids I make him sit-and he will listen to me then, there is something very gentle about him even now with kids.
We do long walks but every day it's like he's never been outdoors in his life.
I can get his attention by shaking his neck and yelling, then he is good and respectful for a few minutes. Just a shake won't do it, and just the yell won't either-yelling gets him barking at me, and shaking I think just flings drool loose from his lips.
But I feel like a big ass. Plus, this pup is super vocal-he screams like I'm throwing hot oil on him when I do this. people look at me like I'm killing him. As soon as I let go, he sits and makes noises at me, may jump on me, then heels nicely, and for a few minutes, will respond to snaps when he gets pushy. But he forgets within a minute ot two and is back to wild man.
(I did try for awhile just stopping and not going anywhere when he started getting too crazy, and we wouldn't g on until he was calm. I would like to keep doing this but it ends up that we never get to have the walk because it takes an hour to make it down the block, since as soon as we start going again he starts losing his mind again. And this pooch NEEDS exercise.).
As I said, he's getting far too strong for me to let this go on. I want him to enjoy our walk time, and I hate having to force him into anything, but he's going to drag my ass out in the road and kill me or himself soon. (I've had
huskies, but for sheer excitability and pulling strength, this pup beats them)
While I am excited by the future possibility of shaving a minute off my mile run time with him helping, I really need to get him under control on leash. How do I do this without breaking him at this young age? Should I just work out my upper body more and let him be a pup awhile longer? Is the shaking/yelling bad? As I said, this dog has a bit of knucklehead in him and it's hard to get his attention outside. He's not afraid of me at all, and I don't feel he's been dampened a bit.
Sometimes I feel like we don't have a bond like I've had with other pups. I'm not sure he wants to be a Good Dog for me. He responds best to really "in your face" playing, and corrections(peeing in the house is the only other thing he gets corrected for), etc. he likes yelling and waving and stuff. (story here about a dumb person who tried to scare us on a walk by yelling
and jumping up and down and making charges at us-puppy went NUTS trying to get to the person, he was up on his hind feet on the leash, barking like mad at this kook while I'm trying to casually pull onward. he just likes loud and active stuff.)
I feel like I'm ratcheting my personality up a few notches to accomplish things with him.
Advice, criticism, guidance, reassurance?

How old is the pup?
I would make sure I didn't break any of the rules regarding a dominant dog. There's articles here on the site about that. I'm not a trainer so I'm not going to give step by step advice.

With working breeds with very high drive, you're going to have to put this dog in check.

Are you never planning on using a prong collar?
Do you have the training tapes?

If the problem persists this dog will challenge you more and more, to the point he'll growl or bite you while he's lounging on your sofa. I've read some interesting stories off here.

Could you breakdown some of the info about this and what're your goals? The reason I mention this is I don't know if it's just one easy answer on what to do.

Hi Brad
Pup was born on Aug. 4, so he's almost four months old now.
I am planning on doing shutzhund with him, and of course he is a pet as well. I will mainly be happy with an active jogging/hiking/camping/fishing/swimming buddy, but I have always wanted to compete in shutzhund so this is my prospect.
I have never used a prong, although this morning I read the posts on them here. I just don't really understand them so far, so I don't trust them. the pup seems awful young to be needing such things. If you use a prong, please tell me about it.
If he was just going to be a pet, I would, quite frankly, be a LOT meaner/firmer with him. I know I could dominate this pup if I wanted to, bring him to heel, so to speak, but...he's a pupper. There's nothing proud about dominance over a forty pound pup. I would much rather get him to WANT to work for me. Plus I think I'd run a great risk of spoiling him for work. There has to be a gentler way.
I told the breeder I was new to schutzhund and to not give me the sharpest, highest drive pups in this litter. I trust that he did not, we talked for a long time, and I believe he understood what I needed. I am worried that I am just not up to the task of working bloodlines maybe? Does he sound especially high drive and dominant to you? I would be very relieved actually if the trainer tells me this guy is just supercharged and its not me.

Well since I'm not a trainer I don't want to tell you the wrong thing.

He's young enough to the point where he's just a pain the neck. So I can understand your prong issue. The trainer at your Schutzhund club should know what to do.

I'd let him walk around with the lease on and get use to wearing it constantly until he's very comfortable. He'll get use to it.

Keep socializing him go through the motions, but before I took him to your local club I would get the tapes on
-8week to 8months-
-Building drive a focus-Flinks Video
-Basic Obediance-

That should help you a long for now. You'll see what you should, and should not do. How much time to focus on training for now, etc.

I wouldn't do anymore prey bite training with him until six months, he's probably dropping teeth right now. Get him a wet towel or rag and let him chew on it. It'll help his comfort.

He's probably going to be extra mouthy for the first six months. Don't worry about it.

That's all the advise I can give, someone with more experience will have to add some other things. Good Luck

i didn't see anything that sounded like dominance. it sounds like a young pup with lots of drive.
at not quite 4 months old, a walk around the block is too long to keep his attention. and all the distractions will be great when he's ready for proofing. but he's still in the learning stage.
take lots of food and toys with you on walks, and with even the slightest offer of attention on his part, reward him.
ideally, if you can find someplace less busy to walk him, that would be preferable. but it's not always an option. take it slow and keep it positive.
at home, do a lot of work on attention. get him looking at you and make games interactive with you. teach him that you're more interesting than anything else.
when i take my pups to the park, i can't get any attention if i walk. but when i run, they don't take their eyes off me. it feeds their prey/chase drive, and makes me the focus point.
and don't worry about getting to the end of the block. changing pace and changing direction will keep the pup's interest up.

When the pup wears the prong collar, you are not associated with the correction. When he pulls and acts crazy, gets a self-correction because the collar pinchs him, you are there to comfort him. Pretty soon he will learn to stop pulling to stop pinching. All the time you are the nice guy. Now as it is, you are nagging and yelling at him. He could see you as negative in his world. I just would not give corrections with the collar, just let him correct himself, then comfort him. You could turn from yeller to his best buddy?? I dont let my pup experience any negativity or yelling. Makes the relationship better, but these are just my opinion.

Thanks everyone for the advice so far.
Brad-I do want to look at the tapes-but I gotta wait a couple weeks-(law school plus holidays plus natural diets equals no cash for me just now. There's only so much part-time waitress cash to go 'round!) I have gotten great advice from the articles and people here-I think it's keeping me sane so far.
Rickey-I may be open to a prong after talking with my trainer next month. I just don't feel right using it just yet. I hear what you're saying. I FEEL like a nag on the walks.
corgipower-and I think you have the answer, which was here all the time but I am as hardheaded as the dog. Treats, treats-it always comes back to treats. Running with him is an impossibility right now as he is a zig zaggy fool, but the treats will get his attention for sure. Why is the easy solution the hardest one for me to see?

Alex
You have mentioned running with your dog a couple of times. DO NOT run with a young dog like this until he matures physically. Running is to hard on a young dogs joints. There are articles on conditioning in older posts. Look under Health Issues (condition training for dogs) He sound like a happy, normal working puppy.

when i said run with him, i don't mean go joging and take the dog. i just mean a little sprint for about 10 steps to get the dog's prey/chase drive up and to make yourself more exciting.
this should help get the pup to focus on you as he catches up. that's when you stop and play with him. he is not running anymore than he would normally in playing with a ball.
if the pup is ahead of me and pulling, i'll turn around and run so he catches up. if he's behind me, i'll run forward. very quickly i have a pup that stays with me and watches me without any force. walking is boring and the pup will find more interesting things to do.

hey hey guys-look again! Reread the post. I can't even walk this pup in a straight line fifty yards-there is no way I could run with him, even if I wanted to!
I am NOT running with the pup! It is merely one of my FUTURE plans with him. The breeder and I had a good talk about running and when to start...the pup pulls so much that naturally I am thinking he'll shave some time off my run time, and well, for me that's a thing to look forward to.
I'm a jogger, and my older bitch is gonna be done running with me in a couple years-he is her replacement.
btw, they are both puking like crazy today. Big slimy ropes of yellow crap.