Ginger, our high energy Australian Shepherd is a pretty good dog. With the help of Ed's videos and forums like this, I think I've done a pretty good job raising her to get along with our family. But, of course, she's still a dog and her training will continue for the rest of her life.

One thing I found is that sometimes she will react to a verbal correction alone, maybe a leash pop (although almost never to a leash pop, tug, yank etc) and other times, to nothing.... until I found my secret weapon.

She liked to jump up on the kitchen counter now and then or sneak food off the kids table and even though I had her attached to me and a leash, a pop didn't seem to faze her. I remember seeing a dog training show where a lady used a can filled with beads to make a sound that would surprise the dog.

I grabbed a soda can and filled it with some rocks and found the ultimate training tool... for Ginger. The first time I shook that can, I thought she was going to pee on the floor. It only took maybe a few times for her to "get it". Now, just a very slight jiggle and she changes her focus to something more acceptable. I have to find a way to hide it now to see if acts up when she can't see it.

A praise for listening is always given and she seems no worse for the wear.

The moral of the story is experimentation.... finding what works for you and your dog.

My .0013 cents (adjusted for inflation)

Wow, I hate to disagree, especially since I'm new to the forum, but I have to.

If Ginger wasn't responding to the leash corrections, then they weren't strong enough corrections. Like Ed says, one good correction is worth a million nagging ones. She learned to ignore the corrections, and therefore, ignore your commands.

The noise-maker may be working wonders right now, but I think you're setting yourself up for a lot of problems in the future.
First, what happens the first time you want to correct her, and the can is nowhere near? She'll learn that the corections aren't 100%. Second, what happens if the can looses it's effect, because she realizes that the noise can't hurt her?

I'd really consider whether this is a long term solution, or a quick fix.
And I'd always be leary of using fear to correct a dog.

Just my opinion, but I'd like to see everyone elses opinion, too.

Edited by (06/17/2008 05:16 PM)
Edit reason: Added

Well the way I look at it. You don't start a fight that you can't win. That includes corrections!!

The can is a surprise thing more or less something that yes will work in a situation like Mike's dog poking in the garbage. But like what Alyssa says it needs to be backed up by a secondary plan.

Looking at Leerburg's theory of corrections http://www.leerburg.com/pdf/theoryofcorrections.pdf

 Quote: theory of corrections pdf

The wrong kind of correction, or a poorly timed
correction, or even the lack of correction is what gets people in trouble.

So what if you drop a long line and the dog keeps moving just out of reach. Every time you call the dog it gives you the finger and then on the 10th time it comes to you then you give it a scruff shake. What has just happened? Did you correct it for the 9 times it didn't come or did you just correct your dog for doing a perfect recall?

It is the timing of said correction is the most important. A can with pennies inside yes works and you can time it well with a young soft dog but not all dogs would respond in the same way. Quite possibly with time the dog will learn to tune out the can anyways. So you do need to be looking for a backup. Always try to morph your training techniques.

I'd like to touch on setting up a young dog for success. I mentioned not starting fights you can't win. What I mean by that is .. Say you put a dog in a down and there is lots of distractions ... The dog breaks the down is it the dog's fault or the handler for expecting a young dog to stay in a long down in the face of distractions? Would you correct? I wouldn't.

I have seen the can/noise maker approach used by trainers, but I have never been a big fan.
This year I have already worked with about 7 dogs that were obsessing and neurotic about sounds. One of these dogs started the neurotic behavior because of a laser toy being used to play, but the others were started by the use of a can.
Here is how I have seen it work: The dog does something wrong. The can is produced, and behavior stops. BUt the dog seems to separate the can from the handler. Basically, it respects the can, but if the handler doesn't have the can, the dog doesn't respect them. Next, the dog starts to become fearful/neurotic about various sounds that are similar: a kids' piggy bank, etc. The dog sometimes will associate ALL cans to the sound, therefore anyone holding a soda or opening a can of spaghetti is potentially about to correct the dog, and the dog responds by backing away, etc. Before too long, the dog is starting to be fearful aggressive, obsessive/neurotic or dominant toward anyone making a similar sound or holding a can.
No, this doesn't happen in every case. But I have taken a lesson from these dogs: it is very important that they see YOU as the one correcting them, not an inanimate object. If you are using an e-collar, do the groundwork FIRST so they see YOU as the one correcting them. That is the goal anyway, right? To get them to see you as being in charge and respect you. If a leash pop isn't working, IMHO you need to make the correction stronger. If you find yourself repeating the correction 3 times, the dog isn't phased or isn't getting it. Make the correction so the dog understands WHY it is getting disciplined (proper timing) and strong enough to stop the behavior and prevent the dog from doing it again (proper correction level).

 Quote: mike hawker

The first time I shook that can, I thought she was going to pee on the floor.

IMO this was an over correction. Scared to the point of almost urinating might sit okay with me in response to a correction for an act of aggression but not counter surfing. It sounds like she's come around and doesn't react as strongly anymore but I don't like tools based on fear. Sorry to rain on your parade; I know you were psyched with this discovery.

With that said it does interrupt the behavior to keep it from becoming a heavily reinforced habit. Interrupting the behavior is important but training her to ignore food on counters and tables is what I would work on. I can't state it enough "Marker Training"

Here is a training scenario you can practice 7 days a week 3 times a day and it should eventually become habit for her. I would suggest tethering her to a point where she can't reach the table while your family is eating but close enough where you can toss her a treat; watch her closely and when she relaxes and lays down "mark and toss a tidbit" go back to ignoring her until she does it again repeat be consistant and never allow anyone to feed her from the table again. As she gets it; and chooses the relaxed behavior regulary you can begin to vary the reward cycle. In other words you will eventually be able to eat a full meal without having to toss a treat. Also don't let her near the counter or table if food is out either contain her or clean up and put the food away. Give it a shot. It won't hurt and it might help.

 Quote: Geoff Empey

Say you put a dog in a down and there is lots of distractions ... The dog breaks the down is it the dog's fault or the handler for expecting a young dog to stay in a long down in the face of distractions? Would you correct? I wouldn't.

I wouldn't either. Corrections need to be fair. On the other hand maybe a correction is in order; perhaps a swift kick up my a**

We've been told that a way to stop the dog jumping up to see/grab whatever's on the counter is to set up something that will fall when the dog jumps up.
So for example you set up on the counter a bowl of water or things that will make a lot of noise when they fall. Under the bowl you put a tea towel, or something the dog will grab. So when they grab it the bowl falls and they get wet or lot's of noise and they learn that jumping up to the counter isn't good.

Would that be the same as the noisy can? It would be hard to reinforce I guess, and it does use fear as a detterent instead of correction. We haven't used it because Max will always stop when we say no. But I kind of thought it was a good idea, though now I'm starting to think maybe not.

Rhonda, I think the difference is that setting up a mouse trap on a trashcan lid, or a falling object on the counter, is a self-correction. The dog is scaring itself.
The dog says to itself, "Whoa, the trashcan bit me. I'm not messing with it again", or "Wow, the counter barks back, I'm not gonna bug it" Not, "Holy crap, that can is really SCARY, I don't ever want to see another can like that again. Why is dad shaking that can at me!"

It seems like the food on the counter/table issue is pretty common. When I'm preparing meals, or anytime anyone is eating, our dog goes to her kennel. She knows this is the policy. When we're done and everything is put away, she either gets a treat, or if it's mealtime, she gets HER dinner. That way, A) she has no reason to jump on the counter- there's nothing interesting up there, and B) it reinforces her position in the pack, as she always eats LAST.

OK, so what about trash can raiding?
I can't figure out how to incorporate marker training into getting my 11 month old pup to keep her nose out of the waste basket.
I have not given her a physical correction for this; a verbal 'No!'or 'Leave it!' works sometimes, but has done nothing to deter her from doing it again.
I am considering the mouse trap route, but I'd like to hear opinions about that, or suggestions on what has worked for others.
Or is this one of those times when "one good correction is worth a thousand nagging ones"?

I'm at a loss on this one.
With my dogs I've always taken the "Don't pick a fight you can't win" approach. With a lot of things, like counter surfing, or trash can diving, I find it easier to preempt the problem than correct the behavior. (ie, kenneling the dogs during meal preparation/mealtimes)

Our trash in the kitchen is a covered trashcan, and our dog ignores it because it's always been covered. She doesn't know that she CAN get into the trash. Also, the dog has very controlled access to our home. We have uncovered waste baskets in the bedrooms and bathrooms, but our dog isn't allowed in those rooms unless on-leash. She's only allowed in the kitchen when supervised. The only room of our house that our dog is allowed to "roam" in, is our livingroom, which is mostly puppy-proof (no dangling cords, trash, etc).

A dog that is digging in trash or jumping up on counters, IMO, has lost the right to have free reign of the house. They may be potty trained, but they aren't "house broken" yet. I really don't know how to deter a pup from trashcan diving once it's begun. I think the best advice I can give any dog owner is to look around your house, and spot every potential chance for doggie mischief, and remove the temptation. Obviously, puppies will be puppies, and they'll find a way- case in point, her first night home with us, Danke was laying next to my feet (on leash), and unbeknownst to me, decided to taste the leg of the couch. Luckily I looked down before she did any real damage, and gave her a Kong to chew instead. Since then, she hasn't had any further furniture consumption mishaps- it was my fault for not giving her a constructive activity while she was laying down, and now I always make sure her Kong is nearby.

 Quote: alyssa myracle

I'm at a loss on this one.
With my dogs I've always taken the "Don't pick a fight you can't win" approach. With a lot of things, like counter surfing, or trash can diving, I find it easier to preempt the problem than correct the behavior. (ie, kenneling the dogs during meal preparation/mealtimes)

Our trash in the kitchen is a covered trashcan, and our dog ignores it because it's always been covered. She doesn't know that she CAN get into the trash. Also, the dog has very controlled access to our home. We have uncovered waste baskets in the bedrooms and bathrooms, but our dog isn't allowed in those rooms unless on-leash. She's only allowed in the kitchen when supervised. The only room of our house that our dog is allowed to "roam" in, is our livingroom, which is mostly puppy-proof (no dangling cords, trash, etc).

This has been my experience for most things but I've had a few lapses (and for a smart dog it just takes once) and a problem is born.

I've found with things like trash cans and litter boxes (my dog's weakness) it's better to put it away and/or restrict access to it than constantly having to be "on guard" and having to correct. My cats are actually worse than the dog when it comes to bad house manners in general and trash cans in particular.