The recent threads have got me thinking about definitions.

I have trained with compulsion in the past, I no longer do this. I don't think it's fair and neither me or my dog enjoy it.

I now use marker training for the teaching phase, with correction for mistakes once the dog has a clear understanding. Dogs trained with marker training many times only need a verbal correction (or negative marker)

It's my belief that many people think correction and compulsion are the same thing. I do not. It's my understanding that compulsion = force. Correction = rectifying a mistake. IMO, that's a huge difference.

From the dictionary
compulsion,noun, coercion

correction noun, rectification
the act of offering an improvement to replace a mistake; setting right



I thought I would start a conversation about this, with the hopes that we may all learn something.

I'm off to camp with my horse overnight, so I won't be posting more today but I look forward to reading the responses when I get back!

Yup. I used to use compulsion at one time too (didn't everybody?). I now use a clicker and almost never have to correct my dog. He's so into training that he rarely misses cues and he has 'happy stub' for the duration of training sessions. I LOVE it. It means his concentration is good too. The folks that don't like marker training think that you always have to pump food into your dog. If that's what's happening then it's not being done correctly. Once a behavior is learned you go to intermittent rewards, or only reward after a chain if behaviors.

 Quote:

Dogs trained with marker training many times only need a verbal correction (or negative marker)

I've found the same to be true re: verbal corrections. I rarely need more. It seems most of the dogs I've marker trained want to work WITH me and are willing contributors to the partnership. If they know they are doing something wrong they are generally willing to correct their own behavior with just a verbal reminder.

Corrections on the prong collar (or e-collar) are rare, and usually only necessary because my dog is big and has an intense prey drive (again with the squirrels). He's also a young dog, and I hope he ultimately will learn to have more self-control.

I think of a correction as a much stronger version of that reminder that a dog occasionally needs, when a verbal correction has been ignored. I don't think corrections should be a substitute for teaching a dog the correct behaviors and taking the time to work in distractions gradually.

Years ago I had a dog with aggression issues that I took to a class that used compulsive means to train. That dog started the class with an aggression issue, and left the class with an over the top aggression problem. That was the impetus for me to look for something better. I'm not a big fan of compulsion. One of my training goals is to have a dog that responds so well to verbal cues that all he needs is a flat collar, or even better, can be off-leash. I don't want my dog to behave and do as I ask just because he knows I can 'get him' with the leash.

Technical defintions notwithstanding, many trainers feel they are the same thing. As you are well aware, one of the biggest stumbling blocks in any canine training related discussion is terminology. To me personally, the words are interchangable. A correction can be as simple as physically placing a dog in the correct positon. A correction can also be as simple as ignoring a particular behavior. It can all be corrective in nature. As for compulsion, we've always described it as "escape training". For example; teaching a dog to sit, one puts downward pressure on the rump, upward pressure on the leash, the dog goes into the sit position to "escape" the pressure. Immediately on the dog assuming the proper position, all pressure is released and the bhavior is reinforced. In the law enforcement world and organization comprised of Federal, state, and local representatives of the LE world are attempting to develop a standardized terminology and standards. I hope that helps in the future.
In summary, while I certainly understand the technical definitions of coercion as opposed to correction, in practice, many trainers use the term interchangable.

DFrost

I'm on the same page as David . But looking back I should be thinking more about which is the best term to use at times .

Compulsion = I will physically force you to do what I want.

Correction = I will let you know that what you just did, isn't what I want, and give you another chance to get it right.

 Quote: alyssa myracle

Compulsion = I will physically force you to do what I want.

Correction = I will let you know that what you just did, isn't what I want, and give you another chance to get it right.

That would be my take too. Nicely put!

I'd add that the correction level would be only the level required to get the dog's attention and convey the "incorrectness" of the action. This would vary, then, depending on what was required at that moment to get that dog's attention.

I apologize in advance for the length of this...
Many of you know that I have two dogs.
But I doubt most of you know that I have 1 dog I used compulsion with, and 1 that I did not at all.
See, when I first got my Boxer puppy, I was still in the school of thought that " I want my dog to work because I told her to, not because I am bribing her" Now, I was really not that hard on her, and I went out of my way to be as fair as possible. When I taught her to sit, I didn't crank on a leash and shove her butt down, but I used leash pressure while I pushed her bum down, and so on and so forth.
Compulsion was used a little more when she was older. If I had told her to heel, and she wasn't, I would pop her with the leash, and "remind" her to heel.
I really had never shown her that it was a GREAT thing to be next to me, looking up at me, but I expected her to DO it anyways.
I'm sure that I could have REALLY been in the compulsion camp and been REALLY harsh on her, but I am so grateful that I wasn't. In fact, by the time that she was a year I had given up on her being able to really do a whole lot... she was so nervous all the time. When she would down, she would drop her head and s-i-n-k down slowly, ears back, tail clamped.
That was the point that I decided that I had to change my approach. I would never have trained that way if I knew better, it was just the way that I had been shown, and what I had been told was the way to train a dog.
I stopped doing OB work with her, and I put her back into a flat collar. For a few months, I just let her surge ahead, getting happy with simply going on a walk again. I took the approach of no corrections, at all. And I went out of my way to set her up to not be in trouble no matter what. After a few weeks, she started to get more and more excited, and she actually started to enjoy walks again. She has only gotten better since then, but it takes me at least 5-6 upbeat repetitions with lots of toy movement or treats and a lot of excitement to get her to down in any way other than, well, cowering.
By the time I got Ivan, motivational was the approach I would take with every dog I worked with. Unless it was a pack or rank issue, he wasn't corrected. All OB was upbeat and motivational, only. Recently (after the Michael Ellis seminar) I added in telling him when he was not doing what I wanted with an upbeat "nope" to keep him trying.
The results are staggering. I recall them both, Ivan comes tearing up, destroying grass as he runs, and slams his butt to the ground mid slide in front of me. Kavik runs too, but not the same. She comes up to me when I call, and there is an immediate response in her, but with her it's more "I better get over there" and with Ivan it's more "Oh boy! I can't wait!"
It might sound odd for a dog trainer to be saying they made this huge of a mistake, but well, there it is.
Most of what I work with in my business is rank issues, and, in the past, the actual OB work was done later on down the road by a different trainer, or by the new owner. Instead of opening my mind up, I was more or less stuck where I was. It wasn't until I saw the way my dog was responding to me that I opened my mind up, and started to challenge the way that I was taught. Now I stay with the dogs I worked with until they are adopted, and with some of the more difficult cases, I work with the new owners as well. I guess everyone has to learn some lessons the hard way, but in my case, it seems like my dogs were the ones that were really learning the hard way

Must......use.....paragraphs.....

Just makes it easier to read when it's not presented as a huge chunk of text.

 Quote: cameron feathers

If I had told her to heel, and she wasn't, I would pop her with the leash, and "remind" her to heel. ... I really had never shown her that it was a GREAT thing to be next to me, looking up at me, but I expected her to DO it anyways. ... That was the point that I decided that I had to change my approach. I would never have trained that way if I knew better .... It might sound odd for a dog trainer to be saying they made this huge of a mistake, but well, there it is.....

Not a mistake, really .... it's learning!

I admit that it was Ed saying "I will never train without markers again" and Bob Scott's sig line ("Old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks!") that opened my mind beyond Cameron's description: "When I taught her to sit, I didn't crank on a leash and shove her butt down, but I used leash pressure while I pushed her bum down, and so on and so forth."

I train differently now. I know that my training has evolved over the years, but last year and this year have been major.

Corrections: Of course, when needed
Compulsion: Not for me

Cameron, don't feel bad. I went every which way with training when I first started.

I started off with compulsion.. and I was not nice about it! I was a young kid who'd been told because she was a girl she could never train a dog. Dog's don't respect girls. You have to force them. Well I was so little (10-13) that I wasn't physically able to force them, which is a good thing! I started with family dogs and my first dog. I felt so bad when I made my dog yelp one time I just didn't feel right about it.

I met a neighbor who told me he used treats to show dogs training and listening could be fun. I went for it! But I still did not understand a lot of concepts and being young I was mainly just determined not to "be mean" anymore. To my young brain it was "always be nice." It didn't get me the results I wanted all the time, but I was happy because I was being nice. Well I learned the hard way that always being nice did not work. Handling a cousin's shepherd I thought love cured everything. Got bit for all my trouble and I was lost for about a year trying to figure out what to do.

By then I had the internet and started learning the names and terms of dog training. I started to figure out in my head how to use all the knowledge I had gained by watching dogs and wolves intereact with each other, what it meant to me and how a dog trainer could use that information. I learned to be neutral and comfortable with correction if it was necessary, to leave all emotion at the door and not use frustration and anger.

By the time I got my first job, working at a boarding kennel I had a lot of things I was confused on, fixed. I had a lot of fine tuning to do, and am still fine tuning now. I now know a lot more about training in general though I will always be learning and growing.

I use mostly positive reinforcement, marker training, and really love what I am learning about SATS. But in working with behavior mod I do use what I consider to be complusion when I need to prevent getting bit. I try to utilize PR and markers into everything including aggression cases but when faced with the choice of teeth in flesh and heavy correction I can will and do choose correction.

I feel that I am very fair and I love working WITH an animal and not against them. Learning and being able to change and willing to accept that you were wrong and that there is a different way that could be better.. that is what makes a good trainer.

"Good is the enemy of great. If you settle for what is acceptable you will never be the best." If you are seeking to improve you are always on the right path.