Hey all,

My wife and I (well, mainly me) are looking at a dog for personal protection. This will be an in-house family dog. My preference is for a dog that bonds closely to one person, but still gets along with the rest of the family and accepts who I do. I should note I have a one-year old, however we are waiting until she learns manners around animals and going to be smart about supervising the dog & baby at all times and not letting the baby annoy the everlasting crap out of the dog, or vice versa. My wife's only real requests are a dog that can be calm in the house and that is accepting of our daughter. I want a dog that can be alert of the situation & strangers, be my shadow, and just be my buddy in training and have my back in case anybody attacked my family or me.

As for the reason of this post . . . What to get. On my short-list (in no particular order), I am considering the German Shepherd, Bandog, Dutch Shepherd, and Bouvier des Flandres. The GSD is the default, because that seems to be how my wife is leaning. I like bully breeds and the Bandog seems like a smaller and perhaps better overall version of a Neo. The Dutchie is kind of a wild card as they are typically known as very Mal-like, but if I could find a calmer one I think I would enjoy their sense of humor (just from my limited exposure), they are smaller (which I like, not a huge deal one way or the other), they are short-haired, and brindle (cosmetic, but also a nice camouflage). Finally, the Bouv sounds like an ideal in-house dog as they are reportedly not hyper, are protective, like to be around people without being needy, and I believe if I cut the hair short they could be lower-maintenance than they might at first appear. They also fart with horrible consequence, but there might be ways to work around that.

My actual question is, why SHOULDN'T I get a GSD? What breeds should I add to that list for consideration in my situation (if any)?

I have never owned a GSD, only met a few, but they sound like they might be the most tried-and-tested breed for this kind of scenario, provided I find the right one. However, all of the choices have their pro's & con's. I am most familiar with bulldogs and have read the most, and talked to the most people, about the Bandogs. I would love to hear any thoughts on choosing between the breeds I am considering.

One final thing . . . My experience with dogs. I have been around dogs since I was in the womb. They were mostly nice mutts and hard-headed Dachshunds until about six years ago when I got an Olde Bulldogge. He unfortunately snapped at my daughter, so he's at my dad's now, and his desire to play all of the time and get affection from everybody all the time drove my wife nuts. Despite that, he is a cool dog and I have learned a lot about training. I have a great trainer for OB and know a great PP-trainer so I am confident I can train whatever I get. I have my ideas, however I need unbiased opinions to give to my wife so she can be involved in the process.

-Cheers

How about Lassie or Rin Tin Tin!

So you will be training the dog in pp?
Or are you looking for a natural territorial protecter?


If my dog is learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

David,
Good luck in your search, you'll need it.
I say that because if you actually *need* a PPD, looking for a "calm" one is going to present monumental problems in your search.

Most times when people say "calm", a trainer see "low drive", which decreases their trainability by a huge percent. Drive equals trainability, and trying to turn a low drive dog into a PPD usually means that a trainer can only train the dog in defense....the dog trained in this manner will look good to an uninformed potential owner, but these dogs will almost always retreat and try to escape from a determined threat - leaving said owner still in danger ( and now with a dog that's run away ).

Any reputable PPD trainer ( and there aren't many competent PPD trainers in this country to begin with ) will have a real problem providing and/or training a dog to your posted requirements ( I don't mean that in a bad way, it's just the truth of the matter )
Plus your dog is going to have to tolerate small children, another strike against owning a serious PPD.

Now you *can* get a calm dog and just get an alert bark placed on it, that fulfills the protection requirements of most clients and an ethical and knowledgeable PPD trainer will try and talk you into this.
It won't be a PPD, but it provides increased security, which should be enough for most people.

 Quote: randy allen

So you will be training the dog in pp?
Or are you looking for a natural territorial protecter?


If my dog is learning, I'm doing something wrong.
Randy

Well, first I will be training it in OB. From there, I will have it evaluated to see if the nerves are there and plan accordingly. If it has she has it in her to be a PP-dog, then I'll take her to the PP-trainer. If she does not evaluate well for that kind of work, I would rather just raise the dog as a well-loved member of the family that acts as a deterrent.

I do not like the idea of relying on a dog to be a "natural protector" as that seems like you are sort of depending on the dog to instinctively know what to do without any training to test the dog or direct them in training.

-Cheers

Back in the day, I think I posted a very similar post on a forum (but regarding GSD's only). This was just after our house got broken into. I wanted a PP dog because I thought that would be the best description of a dog that would protect my house and family.

The fact is almost any dog will do this without being trained in PP. It is in their instinct from being part of the "pack".

I had my doubts about our Aussie because she is such a happy-go-lucky sort of submissive dog.... that was until just the other day.

We heard her barking in a low tone we'd never heard before (she's almost 2). A neighbor kid was in our driveway getting some dirt from us and she couldn't see him, but she heard him. It was nice to see that she would bark like that if needed.

I'd say go get a dog that touches your heart and let nature take care of the rest.

 Quote: will rambeau

David,
Good luck in your search, you'll need it.
I say that because if you actually *need* a PPD, looking for a "calm" one is going to present monumental problems in your search.

I do not "need" a PPD as in I have a current issue or live in a bad neighborhood. I "need" one the way you might need a gun locked up in your room as a precaution.

 Quote:

Most times when people say "calm", a trainer see "low drive", which decreases their trainability by a huge percent. Drive equals trainability, and trying to turn a low drive dog into a PPD usually means that a trainer can only train the dog in defense....the dog trained in this manner will look good to an uninformed potential owner, but these dogs will almost always retreat and try to escape from a determined threat - leaving said owner still in danger ( and now with a dog that's run away ).

By "calm" I mean "will not go nuts in the house." I have seen American Bulldogs and German Shepherds that were PP-trained but could be calm. I am just looking for a dog that has an off a/o can be taught manners. A more reserved dog, not one lacking in drive. So I am not looking for a super-sport Mal, an ultra-defensive dog, or a meek Golden Retriever. Just a balanced dog that is livable as a house dog that is not so hard & sharp as to make it a danger to my family.

 Quote:

Any reputable PPD trainer ( and there aren't many competent PPD trainers in this country to begin with ) will have a real problem providing and/or training a dog to your posted requirements ( I don't mean that in a bad way, it's just the truth of the matter )
Plus your dog is going to have to tolerate small children, another strike against owning a serious PPD.

You really think so? A dog with a balance of drives that is manageable in-home and safe around kids when responsibly supervised is going to be incompatible with a working protection dog? How is that unmanageable? I think there is also a difference between drive and activity level, to some extent at least (e.g. a high-drive Mastiff vs. a high-drive Malinois or Jack Russell). Historically speaking, haven't working protection dogs been bred for just that? Not trying to sound argumentative or belligerent, but I have been around several PP-trained dogs that were manageable and at least one that has been used for therapy work and search & rescue, yet was fine around kids.

I am willing to be proven wrong, I just do not necessarily see my goals as being incompatible.

-Cheers

 Quote: lee sternberg

How about Lassie or Rin Tin Tin!

My dad actually had a descendant of Rin Tin Tin back in the day, around the time before he went to Vietnam. True story.

-Cheers

David,
There are plenty of "PPD trained" dogs around - but *very* few of those would actually protect someone against a determined attacker.
I have seen literally *dozens* of dogs that people spent big money for PPD training, yet I or another good decoy would chase them off the field, to the dismay of their owners.

So a calm "PPD trained" dog really doesn't mean anything unless the dog has actually been tested by a PPD decoy that knows what they're doing or they've had a real life encounter with a bad guy in a life threatening situation.

Most people fall for the hype of PPD trainers that pass off so-so dogs as PPD's, and since the dogs will never likely get tested either on the field or in a real life situation, the owner will be happy with a pretend PPD.

"I am willing to be proven wrong, I just do not necessarily see my goals as being incompatible."

Ok then, here's how to test your PPD in the future:
This is from my writings over at:
http://www.protectiondogforums.com/forums/index.php

Ok, you've followed the advice from the thread "Selecting a Trainer/Vendor" and after doing your extensive homework, you've gotten in contact with a good vendor. You have been in close communication with this vendor via e-mail and phone and he thinks that he's got a dog that you can work with.
What now?

There are a few steps that I suggest you take to make the most out of your visit to see the dog.

1) Come a little bit early to the site and ask to be shown around *before* you see the dog. Look at the kennel set up - it everything clean, is it a place that you'd be fine with boarding a dog at?
Take a look at the training equipment, is it well cared for and organized?
Look at the training site, do they have mock ups of building/windows, cars,etc. where they can train realistic protection scenarios? Is the area fenced for safety?

2) Take the time to look at the dog's paperwork. Check it's registration ( if any, there are plenty of excellent un-papered dogs ) and look closely through it's health records. Take a look at it's hip x-ray rating. If the dog was owned by someone else previously, find out *why* the dog was sold, and be demanding in a clear answer for this ( these are all points that should have been discussed over the phone before you made your trip there, by the way - you're reviewing the paperwork to double-check and verify facts now ).

3) Let the trainer introduce the dog to you. Observe the dog, is it confident and sure in it's surrounding? Does it look you over but also look to the handler to see if they accept your presence? Is the dog the correct weight, is it's coat in good shape? Does the dog look well-exercised and not like it's been in a crate for 23 hours a day?

4) After the dog has gotten use to you, it's time for your decoy to do their job.
Yes.....*your* decoy - to do this the right way, you'll need to bring a decoy that you can trust and that the dog has never seen.
Now look, this dog probably has received some meaningful training, but the odds are that it's been all on a single decoy ( not many vendors have multiple skilled decoys on their payroll, a good decoy is hard to come by ). What we want to see is how the dog reacts from a threat by a decoy that it doesn't know.

So you'll stay far out of the way and the handler will have the dog on a strong leash. You call your decoy via cell-phone to come in and the decoy will start to to loudly knock on the door to the office - watch the dog, he'd better bark here. The decoy escalates the door pounding and the prospective PPD had better be letting your decoy know to go elsewhere.
Finally the decoy forcefully swings the door open and talks in a loud and threatening manner - prospective PPD should be displaying outright aggression and dragging the handler towards the decoy ( all of these reactions by the dog are *without* commands ) who then leaves.

The handler now calms the dog to the point where you can pet it, etc. The decoy has changed into his bite suit out of sight and is now outside around the corner of the building or behind a van ( whatever you and the decoy and the vendor have decided on previously ). You and the handler and the dog walk outside and stroll calmly to the spot where the decoy is hiding - the decoy jumps out and attacks the handler and you watch for the reaction of the dog ( a slight startle is ok, but the dog has to recover immediately and bite the decoy. Ideally this happens so fast that the dog doesn't even zero in on the fact that there's a bite suit present, so speed is of the essence here ).

I highly suggest that you, the handler/vendor and the decoy walk through the exact steps of the scenario at least twice so everyone knows their part.
A dog that passes this test is the dog that you write the big check for.

Ah yes, everybody wants Rin Tin Tin.

A PPD to the standard that I have come to expect from a dog that carries this title is several things. First off, he is not really beginner friendly. Second, he is not particularly social. Third, he is a "natural" that has been taught control and technique. I don't want to train a dog how to fight, I want the dog to know how to fight, I just want to train him how to fight better and be controlled (OB) in doing so. If I need to spend time building the dogs drive to an acceptable level and teach the dog to bite, then I won't have all that much faith that the dog will step up when (to borrow a friends term) the fecal matter hits the fan.

"Calm" doesn't really come into it anywhere. As Will put nicely, calm to a trainer is "low drive." Of course, with enough exercise, the dog can be taught to act calm in the house, but they will still have their drivey excitable nature.

What Mike H is seeing is the dogs sharpness coming out with maturity. The dog is getting more alert and maybe territorial. Many dogs are this way, it's not an indicator of suitability for protection work, otherwise every Labrador I've ever met would be a great protection dog, but it is something that is useful for someone that wants a dog that either barks at the door or barks at people on command.

For most people, a confident, moderately sharp dog that can be trained to fire up on command is all they need. If the dog actually bites someone it's a bonus, but I wouldn't do bitework with a dog that was too low in drive or always working in defense, which is what you will end up doing with a "calm" dog.

So the important thing is to sit down and realistically think about what you need vs. what you want. Most people will go to the dogless neighbors house instead of dealing with a barking dog. If you just want a deterrent, it won't be too hard to find what you want.

If you are serious about wanting a protection dog that will with little question bite someone on command, then you will need to get rid of that "calm" idea

Do a lot of research and a lot of reading. There are a lot of idiots in the PPD world that don't know what they are doing, will ruin a perfectly good dog, and will abuse or break an unsuitable dog. There is also a difference between being a protection dog and being a fear biter, some PPD trainers like working with what is essentially nothing more than a very forward fear biter because they will likely put on a good show and might even bite someone. Or, you know... hide behind the sofa and lie in their own urine when you most need them.

EDIT: Plus, you know... what Will just posted above me