I have Flink's tape on building drive and focus, with his approach to the out using flanking. My question is, what is the value of using compulsion in introducing/teaching the out, as opposed to using a more motivational approach, such as offering another toy in exchange for the out? I can see where this approach might be limited in an extremely prey-driven pup/dog, but what about a dog that will out for another toy? Is a motivationally based approach neccessarily going to contribute to some foundation training problems? I have also been exposed to training which utilizes grabbing the back of the fursaver while on the deadring to put some pressure on the pup/dog to out while building drive with the tug or ball on a string. I did see a tendency for my dog to fight this approach a little, but still see it as adding conflict to the training. I am talking about training with an eight month old pup.

The 2 arguments you hear against the 2 ball game are 1)It teaches the dog to not have a good grip because of situational outs. The situational out being the dog spitting it out on its own, anticipating the out. The dog is outing when it decides to out. 2) The other argument would be that you are basing the out on a lie because you will trick the dog to end the game and this being damaging to the working relationship you are building with the dog.You are teaching your dog to out on a trick instead of the dog understanding the command and doing it.Also when teaching the dog to out on a trick you are putting the emphasis on the ball/tug instead of the game being about the interaction between you and the dog.
If your dog doesnt like the flanking tech. you might think about if you are really putting the emphasis on the out being the begining of the game and not the end.

The people I train with have had problem using the flanking technique. There problems we run in to using flanking. The first is I hate getting in to a situation where your dog will bite you. Done wrong you may easily get nailed by the dog. Second it seems the dogs are worried about their back ends when they are flanked.

There are 2 different techniques that I have seen used. First what I do is to start as soon as I start any tug games with the dog. This takes patience. Most puppies have a short attention span, and that helps. What I do is play tug with the puppy and then stop all movement of the prey item and give the out command. Then wait. Sooner or later the puppy will get bored and let go. Then start the movement again to get the puppy back on the item. Play a bit and do it again. couple of things to watch for. One is that unless you want an automatic out, sometimes stop and then start the prey item before the pup releases. This is going to keep the pup on the item. Second it takes patience. If you give up too soon you are going to tach the pup to ignore the command. Also don't nag, you want the pup to release on the first command. I use the same thing when we play retrieve games. Just hold the item until the pup releases. Sometimes I go for a straight release, sometimes we play tug a bit first. I want the dog to hold the item until I tell them to release.

The second is a straight correction method. I would only use this on an older dog. Once the dog has gone through enough bite development that they are solid on the bite. Again have the agitator freeze, when the bite starts to weaken give the out, correct, and call into a heel away from the agitator. Then send the dog back for a bite. Another thing that can help is after the dog wins, let them play with the prey item a bit and then lift them by the collar and tell it out. Then wait for the dog to release. Don't do this with a slip collar, the goal is to apply pressure not choke the dog off.

Originally posted by Richard Cannon:
The people I train with have had problem using the flanking technique. There problems we run in to using flanking. The first is I hate getting in to a situation where your dog will bite you. Done wrong you may easily get nailed by the dog. Second it seems the dogs are worried about their back ends when they are flanked.
This is a good point that Richard brings. I like the Flinks approach to training for new (and for people that have been around) people, except the way the out is taught on the video. Speaking with friends that had Bernhard at thier home this is only an introduction to his approach. There is more to go with it then what is shown. New people need to learn how to read a dog correctly before attempting this method of outing. Then I guess once they can read a dog, they are not new anymore. But all jokes aside, if done wrong, or not at the right time in the dogs training, it can lead to problems, and you have to know how to bring the dog around from the stress you caused it from pinching its side, so that everytime you go near its flank it does not think you are going to pinch it. What Richard mentioned happening is the norm with most dogs. You can get bit doing this with even a strong pup. It does work, but I think that in the tape enough was not covered on this topic. Watch the tape, while the goal is for the dogs not to see you flank it, they almost always figure it out. Even the dogs on the tape that Bernhard did it on, they knew what was going on. Do not get me worng, the information on the tape is good, but I think the flanking leaves a bit to the beginners imagination. There are some dogs that I would not recommend doing this on. You could turn something on, that you might regret. I think Ed said he will be developing a vidoe just on out training, that will be more detailed, if you want to use Flink's approach. Good luck, and that was a good question.

I haven't seen the Flinks' tapes, but seems to me that flanking has been the "traditional German" way to teach the out for quite some time. I know an importer who was almost mauled to death by a dog for as little as touching him on the flank while stacking the dog for a picture.

Not a good idea <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> .

 Quote:

Originally posted by Renee Felknor:
I haven't seen the Flinks' tapes, but seems to me that flanking has been the "traditional German" way to teach the out for quite some time. I know an importer who was almost mauled to death by a dog for as little as touching him on the flank while stacking the dog for a picture.

Not a good idea <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> .

On the tape (the first one at least, I still don't have the second, but I hear my puppy demonstrates part of it in the second <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) it is explained at length that this method is only used on a young dog. If done right, the dog spits the toy out in shock and doesn't know what happened. It isn't something you do over and over again to the dog. For the reason Renee mentioned you do not use flanking on older dogs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by Deanna Thompson:

 Quote:

Originally posted by Renee Felknor:
I haven't seen the Flinks' tapes, but seems to me that flanking has been the "traditional German" way to teach the out for quite some time. I know an importer who was almost mauled to death by a dog for as little as touching him on the flank while stacking the dog for a picture.

Not a good idea <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> .

On the tape (the first one at least, I still don't have the second, but I hear my puppy demonstrates part of it in the second <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) it is explained at length that this method is only used on a young dog. If done right, the dog spits the toy out in shock and doesn't know what happened. It isn't something you do over and over again to the dog. For the reason Renee mentioned you do not use flanking on older dogs. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

The problem that I have with what was on the tape, it was explained, but not in much length or detail. Different temperments were not taken into consideration when showing examples (Not like other parts of the tape). Also it did not give any explantion on how else this particular stlye of training would get the toys from the dog other then outing them , or if the dog had a loose grip, but two entirley different things. (It is written that the new tape goes into these things in great detail) Many people were a bit lost on this topic,(as I think there was not enough information on this topic, and too much on other things) as it only called for the dog to give the toy up every so often. What are you suppose to do the rest of the time? I think it was Cindy that wrote an in-depth message on what else to do in an earlier post.

Do not take this the wrong way; the video has very sound training advise I enjoyed it over-all, but this part was lacking abit I think.

Just to get this back to topic,

By using the method I describe I have never had to teach the out on an agitator. By the time the dog gets to the agitator they know the command and it has been proofed in other circumstances, so the dog already has it down cold.

I watching other people train the command most have the most trouble teaching is the out. It just runs counter to ervything the dog desires. If it is taught early enough it is never a question for the dog because the puppy has always done it. It learns that if it wants to play the game it has to do the out.

The other thing that I work on from the begining is the watch. The way I see most people train they start by giving a watch command to start the training session and never give the bite command when the dog goes to bite. I give the bite command just before, or just as, the dog makes the bite. If possible I never want the dog to make a bite after only recieving a watch command. Since the watch is usually the second most difficult command to teach I don't want to go through weeks, or months, of bite development training bsed on the dog recieving the wrong command. I think that you can make the transition to the watch meaning don't bite, just bark and prepare to bite, much easier if the dog is used to seperate commands for the different actions.