Hi all...

I have been helping out (or trying at least!) w/a DDB(approximately 9mos old, female) w/"dog aggression" issues. Long story short, I was expecting a dominant monster of a molosser when the dog was described to me, and what I saw instead was a genetically fearful dog, nervous about "news." The dog would try to bite other dogs especially if she was on leash, so she was labeled "protective." Well, she's not protective; she scared $hi+less, and only wants to bite if she has no other option...and on a leash w/her owner, she has no other option.

Fast forward a couple sessions. We have made what I consider significant progress, but this dog will never (IMHO) be trustworthy, and I certainly wouldn't label her stable. Luckily, she is sweet and affectionate with all humans. I have used 2 of my stable GSDs to try to neutralize her toward other dogs. I get that she needs to learn that all dogs are not out to get her, and that there's no need for her "the best defense is a good offense" attitude. This is going to get her into trouble.

What should I/we be doing as time goes on to try to stabilize her in different settings w/different dogs? Too much pressure and she will snap; I know this. What I'm wondering is this: do I keep up w/her and Caleb and/or Xander until she is as comfortable as possible w/them, OR do I try to introduce different dogs and work on an acceptable level of neutrality each time. Honestly, I think while working w/Caleb is helpful, 99% of the dogs she will encounter will NOT be like him and therefore I think she will fall back on her hard-wired genetics.

Yes, I know, we're looking to mask her issues; there is no real "fix." I said to muzzle her at the vet and keep other dogs out of her face whenever possible, including the older female Rott in the house who picks on her. I don't think this is helping to say the least!

I have more experience with dominant jerks than fearful dogs, so I am hoping some of you guys can help me out on this one. I have a gut feeling how to do this, but if someone can give me "tried and true" tricks that have worked for them, that would be outstanding. Thanks in advance!

Edit: this pic actually shows progress. At first, she would NEVER have another dog behind her. She still hardly looks like a happy camper (note the tail and the half-crouch) but at least she is sitting instead of crawling w/her hackles slightly up.
http://s32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Jenwilliams918/Xander/?action=view&current=NewYears08030-1.jpg

I would be interested as well, because we are trying to boost Loki's self confidence and remove his best defense is a good offense frame of mind as well. He does ok with our dogs, but is terrified of other dogs, even totally non threatening tiny or old ones.

So far I have been just getting him out and about more. and also going to the playground at night and playing on the equipment, sort of like agility.

C'mon, please? Anyone? I KNOW there are people on this board who have worked w/very fearful dogs...aka nervebags. I have some intellectual knowledge about them but very little practical knowledge and/or firsthand experience w/"rehab". Please help.

All my dogs are "nervebags".

Before a session where I plan to expose my fearful dog to something very scary (like PetSmart), I give him a Relora about 1/2 hour before we leave (my one guy is also terrified of car rides).
http://www.vivitas.ca/relora.html (not sure if it's available in the States, but I think so). Relora provides a very noticeable difference in the dog's stress levels.

You didn't mention training with food, so not sure if you have tried this already. I bring very high value food with me, like strong smelling string cheese. We go into the store and if we see another dog, out comes the cheese (my dog is a food hound, so this works to distract him). I show him the cheese and ask him to sit and focus on me. I have to keep my distance from the other dog (depending on how well it is behaving) at least 20-30 feet. Happy and upbeat voice at all times is necessary.

In the photo with the GSD, I would be holding the cheese in my hand and giving her small pieces of it, since she is holding her sit/stay in presence of a "scary" distraction which is hard work for her. She needs encouragement and confidence building. The small bits of cheese, coupled with the handler's calm "good girl"s will give her much needed reassurance that she is doing it right.

My dog gets reactive if another dog barks. Corrections during this time on a fearful dog are counterproductive. I have to try and stay upbeat ("uh-uh, look at mommy! nono, focus!") and try and time my food rewards perfectly for when he stops barking at/being concerned with the other dog. (A clicker would likely help here if her timing is good).

One of the best things I have found for confidence building is physical activity. My most fearful dog transformed if he had a jump to jump over, coupled by excited praise from the handler. I had my dog take turns going over jumps/Aframes with other dogs (all leashed). He had so much fun he actually tried to initiate play with one of the other dogs (very unusual for him).

Hope that gives you some ideas.

We have done all the stuff w/the treats; owner does carry treats with her and I've told her to try to distract her w/treats while the scary other dog is getting closer to her. The dog is actually pretty good about this, and does have decent focus on her handler for the most part. The standard praise and treat for ignoring the other dog what we've been doing. I was hoping for some earth shattering new idea I hadn't thought of, LOL. I lose patience quickly! I admire you for being able to deal with dogs like this on a regular basis. I really like her owner though and would love to be able to help her out.

The corrections are another area I'm not sure where to draw the line. Yes, she is fearful and not intentionally being aggressive, however, I don't think that NOT correcting for a lunge and/or bite (which she got away with once, on another dog) is appropriate either. I don't really care if she's scared, she can NOT lunge and bite a dog in the face who was not being aggressive. This will get her owner sued and her possibly euthanized. However, the flip side is that I know she needs confidence, and over-correcting is absolutely counterproductive. I kind of feel like she needs 90% building up and 10% WELL TIMED, PERFECTLY EXECUTED corrections. The dog is very soft, which is a good thing in this situation, b/c the owner probably only weighs about 25lbs more than the dog.

What collar would you recommend? She had a choke on, but from watching her, I felt like she was resisting the choke on principle, like they all do, and also, that the constant tension was causing her to anticipate a stress and/or correction. No way can the owner control this dog physically w/a flat collar if the dog really wanted to attack someone. I took my prong off Xander and put it on her, and she was 100% better immediately in that the prong isn't tight all the time, and therefore the owner's anticipation of her dog's behavior was not traveling down the leash. But, I don't know if another collar might work better. From what I have seen, the prong is way better than the choke, but I haven't seen her on anything else.

The corrections I was referring to (sorry I wasn't clear) was for things like fixating on the other dog, or barking back at a barking dog - better to redirect if at all possible with a fearful dog. Of course things like actual lunging, or attacking require corrections, no getting around that. According to Leerburg's DVD a DD collar should be used in this situation.

I use a prong with DD backup on my fearful reactive dog, but only because he is too strong for me and has dragged me across my yard on my face to get at another dog, and caused pretty good injury to my hand another time. However, prong corrections DO amp him up quite a bit and make him almost frantic.

I have learned through trial and error to remove the dog to a more comfortable distance from the other dog by pulling steadily (not popping) the prong. Once he calms down then redirection works. I have not found a great solution for this, so I hope someone else can help. I was never too successful with the DD collar.

My main problem was with the neighbor's dogs though the chain link fence. I then built an "alcatraz" yard with plywood walls that solved 95% of my problem. (He still barks if he hears them, but I can now call him off) and I keep him as far from other dogs as possible except in the controlled situations as above.

The exercise/jumps/agility thing I described might give you some progress. Two of my fearful dogs really did well with this as it gave them something other than the other dogs to focus on and they learned to have fun around other dogs.

I have heard a lot of good things about "The Cautious Canine" by Patricia B. Connell from my fellow rescuers, though I haven't read it myself yet. It's on my list of things to do.

My worst case can now be walked in public within about 30-40 feet of a neutral, leashed dog. It did take us a while to get there, though - and he still doesn't tolerate being barked at. We're working on it

I knew what you meant about corrections. I am just hoping to get her to the point where she doesn't need to correct her because she doesn't lunge.

I thought about a DD collar, but don't know if it would be too much for the owner.

I guess the dog isn't that bad if you say your worst case can now be w/in 30-40 feet...this one can be w/in 3-4 feet, but she is worse when the other dog is not very calm, which is why I want to know what is going to be most productive: keep using Caleb primarily and Xander sometimes, or introduce her to a few others and work on neutrality toward all? The big issue I see with this dog is that she will suddenly lunge, and if someone doesn't see her for what she is and allows their dog too close, their dog is going to be missing a chunk of it's face.

Caleb seems to have the most calming effect on her, though Xander isn't too bad either. My only hesitation to using Caleb all the time is that he is NOT typical of what she will meet on the street. He actually interpreted her body language at one point and took a step back before I asked him to. I was trying to see how close he could get before she looked like she wanted to strike, and of course I don't want him getting hurt. I kept calling him closer then asking him to stop, and right at the point where she looked really uncomfortable, he backed up 2 steps and sat. How many dogs at the vet's office, for example, are going to give her the berth that makes her comfortable? Several minutes after that, an unsuspecting Lab got a rip in his nose for approaching her. People will not see her as aggressive, will miss the defensive posture, and let their dogs too close, and a fight will break out.

What do you think about the Rott at home? Should she be separated (I think so) from her? I don't think being bullied at home is helping her confidence in any way. If she gets pushed around at home by dogs she knows, maybe she's that much more worried about dogs she doesn't know.

Thanks for your input, Angela.

Yes, I meant he can be within 30-40 feet of a dog I DON'T know before he starts to fixate/worry. In controlled situations, like an obedience class (I trust the trainer) or with a dog I know and/or is leashed and controlled/neutral, he can be within 6 feet and still focus on me.

And yes, the DD collar was too much for me, apparently it would be the most helpful in these kinds of situations but my dog is a leash puller and strong.

I found I was the most successful when I was able to keep him away from any stressful situations except our controlled training exercises. The dog should ABSOLUTELY be separated from a bossy family dog, in fact, who knows, this could be what is causing her anxiety in the first place or at least making it worse.

No walks where she is able to take a piece out of anybody's dog or preferably even see another dog (a wide open field is helpful to see if anyone is coming). The less she is able to "cause a scene" as I call it, the better. We want practise being calm, and her to get used to feeling calm as much as possible. I guess you could call it the opposite of flooding - have her separated from the other dogs in the house and never around strange dogs except when you are training with Caleb. If possible, and depending on how things go, you could work with Caleb and then slowly introduce Xander when she seems comfortable. When things are going well maybe you can use another of your dogs who might react more like a dog she will come across in public (if you decide you want to do this).

My mistake was trying to do too much too fast, baby steps will work best. "Neutrality to all" is more of a far off end goal that you are working toward, but have other steps to do first. First minor success might be maintaining eye contact with handler while Caleb walks by 6 feet behind her. etc. Next minor success, maintaining a relaxed (not tense) sit stay while Caleb sits still nearby. First major success would be a happy looking dog doing obedience, taking treats, with Caleb present. Next, all the above with Xander present. LAVISH owner approval and praise for any tiny thing she does right.

I know it's not for everyone, but I can't say enough about Relora. It really does help. I use it the first couple times we do something new and scary, then discontinue.

This work is very slow going.

That's probably all the helpful advice I have. Jennifer Marshal posted before about SynAlia training, http://www.synalia.com which is supposed to be great for behaviour modification. I have located a trainer close to me and hope to start that to help resolve the car phobia with my "worst guy". It teaches targeting and may be helpful for your friend to train her dog to target her instead of the other dog.

Anyway good luck, and it's really nice of you to help your friend work on this with her dog, I wish I knew someone with some stable dogs to work with.

Thanks for elaborating. She doesn't cause scenes, which is kind of the problem. To a "normal" person, she appears to be sitting calmly. Not everyone would pay attention to ears and tails and see that she is scared. She is tentative walking near new things, in new buildings, etc. The hardest part is that until a dog gets too close, she is fine and quiet. No barking or growling or anything. She will give a low growl occasionally, but it's like she's been corrected for that before, so she stopped. Now she just lunges when she is pushed. She does not grab hold of the dog-just a quick face bite and then she jumps back. Classic fear.

Neither of my dogs pushed her. They really didn't care much about her at all. When she got bold enough to be curious, I allowed her to sniff Caleb while he was in a down, but I had to make sure he didn't turn his face toward her or she would feel threatened and lash out at him. I am 99% sure he would not bite her back, but he shouldn't have to go through that b/c I want to help someone. I was thinking about introducing Simon b/c he is more boisterous, but still nowhere near your average leash pulling barbarian. His OB is not as solid as Caleb's though, naturally (he's only a year old) and he has not had the more intense "stability" training that Caleb has had. I would introduce her to Qira but I'm afraid Qira would want to kill her if she snapped at her or growled; I don't have nearly the faith in another female ignoring a bitch move, pun intended. Qira is sweet as pie until someone pisses her off, then she comes out guns ablazin'!!!

I will certainly introduce them at some point, but I was thinking more along the lines where she doesn't pay so much attention to what Caleb is doing and where he is. I played ball w/him for a while after one session to get her used to him moving a bit faster, and it went very well, except that she definitely did jump when he had to run about 10 feet behind her to get the ball...though he didn't pay any attention to her whatsoever. He is excellent at reading situations and I am very lucky to have him.

I don't think she's as bad as your guy. I guess she is just so different from what I'm used to that she seems really really fearful. I know the Rott isn't helping, and I will keep pushing for them to be separated, but what I'm seeing is genetically fearful temperament, and the Rott is not to blame. It can be masked, which is what I'm trying to do, but no way would I ever trust this dog in a stressful situation. She will fall back on genetics.

Yep... this is why having a dog/fear aggressive dog sucks. (Okay... any aggressive dog would suck)... because you have to be constantly vigilant about not only your own dog, but everyone else's. I constantly have to scan the horizon when I have one of my dogs with me to make sure there are no off leash dogs. At the vet's I have to constantly body-block other people's dogs, while the puzzled owners wonder why I am so mean and won't let their doggy sniff my doggy. At home I have to check and make sure no neighbor dogs are out and there are no dogs in the park behind the house. I have to try and find places to go and times to go there when there will be little chance of another dog being there and possibly setting our training back. It's tough. In fact, lately I haven't been taking them out at all (bad me!)

Your friend should also try and avoid negative encounters with other dogs which probably, like me, will mean no encounters with other dogs (except yours or other controlled dogs she trusts). Including the bossy Rottweiler.

The Rott probably didn't cause the behaviour (we will never know, but it's unlikely) but she could be a big trigger. If a child is being constantly bullied at school they will not be the friendliest kid in a social setting... same idea.

I would say it sounds like your dogs are doing a great job of helping this dog, though as you found out, having Caleb run around might be too much for her right now. This should be a step to work toward but not yet. Remember: goal for now is just to get her comfortable. At first with him stationary, and getting HER to do some work (ob, play, whatever); then have him walk around. The goal is to get her to ignore other dogs, and ignoring a dog sitting still at a distance would be the easiest baby step. Next ignoring a dog sitting still fairly close, then ignoring a dog walking calmly, etc. Remember - goal: comfortable around dogs and ignoring them. So you train and reward for baby steps (like training the heel: reward for position, then one step, then two steps, etc).

Simon sounds like an ideal dog to have her around when she is already comfortable with the other two and she is getting ready for "real world" scenarios.

My guy is also genetic but he's alot better. (Other than the car thing, hehe). We still have a long way to go. He's up for adoption so I am trying to find a home for him that will understand he'll never be perfect, but he can keep improving.

Your friend CAN do this... but it will take a lot of time. This is why it helps to find something fun to do with her dog, so they both don't lose hope.

Edited by Angela Burrell (01/13/2009 01:54 PM)
Edit reason: i talk alot