I just want to go ahead and apologize to everyone who reads this novel and thank them for taking the time .

I posted last July about my GSD Boss and newly adopted BH Jake.
Here is the link: Troubled Bloodhound Post

They have aggression issues with each other. I camp/hike/fish/bike in the mountains throughout the warmer months, and I really want to be able to take both dogs with me instead of alternating which one to take. I don't care if they like each other; I just want them to coexist with each other. While I seriously considered rehoming Jake, the more I worked with him, the more I grew attached. Thinking rationally, I probably made a selfish choice in deciding to keep him and try to work things out. But I remain optimistic.

Last July they had a fight and since then I've not pushed the issue of them being out together again. But with the warmer months on the horizon, I want to start working now, and hopefully be able to take them out together.

This is how I introduced the dogs to each other:

When Jake was first brought home, I introduced him to my dog through a crate. I didn't know anything about Jake, and I knew that Boss had had aggressive tendencies. Therefore, I put Jake in a crate, and brought Boss in on a leash and a prong collar. Boss, growled at first, but I corrected him and made him lay beside the crate. After this he avoided even looking at Jake and ignored him. I did this for about 2 weeks before I let Jake around Boss outside of a crate. I wanted to make sure that both were accustomed to each other's presence. And when I did let Jake out, he was on a 6 ft lead so that I could control him. After that for about 3 weeks, I upgraded to a 20 ft long line. And that was what he was on last time both dogs were out.

I made a HUGE mistake when we first got Jake by allowing him and Boss to play fetch in the yard together. Boss has a history of being aggressive and is SUPER driven to get the ball.

Through handler error, I ended up causing a fight between the two of them.

Since then, I have continued the groundwork, OB, agility, and am getting ready to start to teach them both to track. Neither dog is let out off leash together. We take walks with the both of them on leash during the week.

They are kennel dogs, yet have plenty of exercise. Their kennels face each other, and they are side by side. There is no fence fighting that I know of (I've never seen it or heard it).

By GW I mean:
When I go to their kennels they must be calm and lie down before the door is even opened, and must remain calm and in a down before they are fed, let out, etc.
At dinner time, they must lay down and stay until released to eat.
They are to down/sit while I attach their leash and prong.
No leash pulling is allowed.
When playing fetch they must lay down before the kong is thrown again.
I go through all doors first.
If they ever start to spaz, get up, go ahead of me, in any of these exercises, I calmly wait, stop, start over.

We're currently tearing down an old barn on our property, and I've made a couple agility obstacles: a dog walk and a couple jumps. If anyone has any ideas on home made equipment, I'd love to hear them. But anyways, I really like this because it stimulates their mind and body and I think it's good for them. Whenever the weather breaks, I'm going to start taking them out (individually) on playground equipment.

We've just been doing regular OB; I've been reading up tracking and will start doing that too when the weather breaks. Even though the weathers been really crappy, we do a few runs on the agility equip, either play fetch or go for a walk, and do some fun OB sessions. So in other words, the dogs are getting mental and physical stimulation.

I've read and re-read Ed's articles on Groundwork, Dominant and Aggressive Dogs, and Introducing a dog into a new home. I have the Basic OB and Dominant and Aggressive Dog videos. Even though I've watched/read all of this, I feel overwhelmed and don't know where to go from here.

I know I've rambled on here, but the last thing I want is another fight. Even though I've not really done anything to prepare them to be out together again, I feel that it would really set us back even further. Thoughts/suggestions?

IMO, you are always going to have a tendency w/these two for fights. Does this mean they can't both go out w/you? No. I can take 2 of mine who don't love each other to work w/me, and they're fine. No cuddling, but fine.

What worked for me was to make it clear that whatever outing you're on is not R&R. It's work. Always, and I mean always, have them doing some kind of OB. I know you want to hike and things, and you can do that, but make sure that they're not just idly walking by you.

What I do is this: say I have both Xander (my 2yo bratty, alpha wannabe GSD) with me and Caleb (my 5 yo super dominant GSD) on a walk in the woods. I make sure that every second of it, they are each doing SOMETHING I've told them to do. I will, for example, tell Caleb to "voraus" then platz him a hundred yards ahead or so (build up to this OB-wise if you're not able to do that yet w/out worrying). I tell him to wait. Meanwhile, I have Xander in a "fuss" at my side, periodically making him stop, sitz, etc. I sometimes make him wait a few paces behind me until I invite him back to my leg again. Since they are each working, they're brains are occupied, plus it changes their mindset a bit. They are far less likely to get into an unfriendly discussion if they are in a commanded position.

As far as obstacles, put them up high (not scary high....like a picnic table or something) on something and put them in down/stays. ONLY IF THEY ARE BOTH RELIABLE! They will probably be less likely to move if they are on something of limited size than just lying in the grass. I have also used this to teach "stay" or "bleib."

Agility is great for all kinds of tension/stress. There's a saying that stress relieves stress...ie, the stress of the OB and/or height/obstacle relieves the stress of being in a down/stay near the dog you hate. I think that part of it is that in a stressful situation ( a dog you hate near you), OB is something of a distraction, an easy thing to do instead of worrying about the dog. Kind of like they say to themselves "Oh! I know this one! I can do that!" However you want to explain it, I have seen some seriously DA dogs do very well near other dogs (I've seen up to half a dozen together or more) when worked on OB and obstacles. AGAIN, DO NOT DO THIS UNLESS BOTH THEIR OB IS PROOFED! I can PM you some agility obstacle ideas.

Oh, and the best obstacle course: the kids' playground!Trees work fine, too. Simple things like these pics have been great for me. It really gets them in a "working with you" mindset.
http://s32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Jenwilliams918/Caleb/?action=view&current=caleb91506020.jpg
http://s32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Jenwilliams918/Caleb/?action=view&current=dogs627020.jpg
http://s32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Jenwilliams918/Caleb/?action=view&current=dogs627048.jpg

EDIT! Am I reading this right that they only got in a fight the one time when you were playing fetch w/both? If that's the case, while they don't have to be out together, if you really want to work toward that, I don't think it may be as hard as you think. If they don't fence fight, and the only fight they ever got in was after something you'd thrown (which you already know was not the best idea in the world) you might not have as long a road ahead of you as you think. I'd stick w/keeping them "working" at all times while together though, no exceptions, period.

"Even though I've not really done anything to prepare them to be out together again, I feel that it would really set us back even further."



Why do they have to be out together?

Connie, I want to be able to take them both with me when I go in the mountains. I'm usually gone for a minimum of three days and it would be nice to be able to take them both. I feel bad b/c one will get to go out and have a good time with us, while the other is stuck back at home in the kennel. There is also a nice pond about a 20 min drive from the house, I'd like to be able to take them both when I go there to exercise. Instead of having to take one, play, come back home, get the other, etc.

Jenni, those are great pics of Caleb on the playground equipment! Please send me a PM for ideas, I'd really appreciate it. That makes sense of having them both doing a job while out together, I never thought of it like that.

I do take them both on walks together. I walk Boss, and Scott (the b/f) walks Jake. When we walk them both its not a casual walk. They can not forge ahead of us, and almost stay in a formal heel. Boss just radiates tension. He can't settle down, and really struggles to focus. I've been hesitant to bring food/toys on our walks like this b/c I don't want to create another fight that way.

When I give a quick pop on the leash to correct Boss if he's focusing to much on Jake, forging, etc, every bit of his body language says he's upset and doesn't want to be in the situation. His tail is hung low, he crouches to the ground, he pants harder, he whines (he is very vocal, but doesn't bark that much). At this point I'll stop, put him in a sit stay, get him to focus on me, wait till he calms, and then pet him calmly. You can tell as soon as this is over and he focuses back on Jake he wants to go for him again. I either start that process over, or take off walking to see if he quits.

Poor Jake is just happy to be here, and is clueless I think. But I don't think it'd take much for him to trigger a fight if they were both loose together.

As for a "job" when out together, if I got them both dog back packs and put a little bit of weight in them, could that be something to help too?

Bart, my DA dog can now be out with all my other dogs, under certain conditions. we too do a lot of hiking, and i allow them to run together, and i also walk them together.

i just have to always be aware, and know my dogs.

when Bart is out with the others, there are no toys, no treats, no petting. that is just how it is. when we are out, i am scanning the ground for things that he might perceive as "fun" and worth guarding and fighting over. if i see a stick laying on the ground a few feet away, i make my way over there to block it, things like that.

also, with mine, it helps to keep moving. to keep doing something to retain his focus. there are several dogs that bart cannot "play" with, btu he can hike with because we are constantly moving, going somewhere.

before we got to this point, he couldn't be loose in the house with my other dogs, but he could and did go on walks very well with them.

for me, i had to read him, and know what would trigger him to fight, and just not do that.

if throwing a tennis ball for the dogs while he was out would lead him to fight over it, then i will not throw tennis balls when he is out. it's not a big deal. later, i will throw one for all of them minus him, and then him alone.

take it slow. be perceptive.

you will find that some days you can do things that you can't others.

there are times when i am willing to have bart out with capone, and watch him diligently, and other times i am not willing to mess with it, so i crate and rotate that day. some times, he is only out with 2 dogs, or just one other, or all of them.

he has learned that i will not hesitate to put his butt back in his crate if he acts up around my other dogs, and he loves being near me, so for him, being out and about is worth not fighting.

Meghan, something you said struck me...you say "Boss just radiates tension." Do you make him heel the entire walk? I try to mix it up. I don't think it's entirely fair that for the entire walk (I sometimes walk 6-7miles) they have to be in a perfect heel. After all, the walk is just as much (more, really) for them as it is for me. I make them fuss, then I make them do a series (sitz,platz,bleib, etc.) then ask them to fuss again...then if it's a perfect routine, I say "free." "Free" means go ahead, run a few paces, sniff around, look around, veer right and left. I find this greatly reduces that tension. They know they are always rewarded w/a break.

I also have another "command." I use "stay close" when they need to be near me (like in a populated area) but not at a formal heel/fuss. It's a relaxed, under control, but military walk. I stole this from a friend. It's really handy in situations like busy areas where they need to be close, on leash, but don't need to be glued to my leg, and it seems to give them a small level of freedom in situations where "free" isn't safe.

Just an idea.

Megan, when I said : Why do they have to be out together?

you said

 Quote: MeganMcCallister

Connie, I want to be able to take them both with me when I go in the mountains. I'm usually gone for a minimum of three days and it would be nice to be able to take them both.

Gotcha. I thought you meant out together without handler(s).... hanging out together.

 Quote: Mike Arnold

I presume you are not radiating anxiety down the leash when the dogs are together or when you are merely in the presence of the dogs. I presume when you utter a command, the command is followed.

These are two areas where the O.P. has mentioned needing work. And it sounds like the work is in process.

Mike,

I find your posts to always be written very fluidly and informative. Thank you for joining!

Yes, I use a prong for both dogs while on a walk. When Scott and I walk the dogs, I don't believe I feel anxiety. Both dogs are on a leash and are completely controllable. I don't put them in situation where they would be able to be at each other. We (Scott and I) both have the mindset on our walks that we are the leaders, this is our walk, and we're taking the dogs with us out of the goodness of our hearts.

I think I can judge Boss quite well. I feel that I understand his body language (as much as I can) and can tell when he's about to go off. While I much more confident in my ability to judge Boss, I feel I have an accurate read on Jake too. I know accurate isn't good enough, but I'm working it.

All commands must be followed. If they are not followed that instance they are corrected. Let me rephrase myself, all commands that are known are corrected for if not done immediately.

I have a very high pitched voice, and I've realized early on screaming, repeating, etc. does nothing. You say what you have to say in the appropriate tone, and begging does nothing for your leadership.

As far as toys I don't think I'll ever be able to feel comfortable playing with a toy, Boss, and another dog. Thats fine I can live with that. The toys are mine. They are put away by me and got out by me. Boss lives for the kong though. I'm not sure if he lives to play with my kong, or to just play with the kong. Does that make sense?

I'm definitely going to try a vest for them both. Does anyone have any outstanding suggestions? I plan on putting a couple water bottles and stuff in them, maybe a lb weight or two. Both dogs are of appropriate ages to wear them.

On the part your confused on: Boss gets very vocal, and whines like crazy. Even when focused on me. I did the whole petting thing and talking in a soothing voice to try to get him to relax. B/c I can't stand the whining! Sometimes it works, sometimes it works if I just take off walking again. Any other suggestions on cutting out the whining? When I correct him for it, it escalates.

Your post was very much worth two cents, and I appreciate the insight !

Mallory,

How did you go about introducing Bart to the rest of your dogs?

I too don't think twice about putting the dog in their kennel for acting up. It's something I do not want to tolerate and do not have time for.

I've been doing my absoloute best to try to understand each dog on how the tick. And I think I'm slowly but surely gaining a foothold on it.

Slow is the only way to go for this!

When/if the dogs are allowed out the keep moving advice from everyone makes sense. No time to hang out and cause trouble, duh . That such a simple thing, but I never thought of it, and I'm sure it'll be crucial.