I read Mr. Frawley's article on American vs. German line dogs as well as his article on selecting a breeder / dog. In the article he discussed that a V or VA rating (which as I understand it is only achieved from a seiger show) means that this dog comes from show lines. How can you determine whether a dog is from German show lines or German working lines? Is this a problem that is unique to GSD's? Would I run into the same problem (show vs. Working lines) when looking a potential Belgian Malanois breeders?

I would start with a web search of working GSD's and a seperate search of show GSD's. The differences don't seem that big, but it is.
Any working dog will have one of many working titles before aor after it's name: SchH I,II,III and ZVV and KKl, or PPD (I know there are more but I can't think of them off the top of my head).
Show GSD's will likely have: Ch., GCH., BoB., BiS. in the front of the name (also, many other titles that I can't think of here).

Someone else will probably have a much better answer for you than I will!

That's not quite true. A showline dog can have titles, too, and a working line dog may have never been trialed, but trust me, these are far different animals, titled or not.

The easiest way it by just looking at them...big and black and red are showlines (German). Ugly, walking-funny, black and tan w/snipey faces are Am. showline (the A.S.S., lol), and dogs who may be just about any color (sable, black, bi-color, black and tan, etc.) are working line dogs typically, from several different lines....Czech, W.Ger, E.Ger, etc.

Post dogs you're interested in and we'll tell you what they are.

Just a different perspective, some trainers, myself included don't care what type of line the dog comes from. Lineage doesn't guarentee a good working dog. We look for behavior and health. If the dog can do the job, it's the one we want.

DFrost

Sure, obviously. But not CARING what lines a dog comes from is far different than not KNOWING, and the OP was asking tips on how she might KNOW what kind of lines the dog is coming from.

I forgot to answer the Mal question. You are not going to have as high a liklihood, IMO, w/Mal breeders, but Mal showlines are becoming more prevalent, unfortunately. A few years ago I'd have said not to worry about Mals as much...but you'll have to be more careful now if you are trying to avoid any show lines altogether.

You have a point David but the chances of getting correct work out of a dog is much better if its pedigree was first selected because of that work. If you want a show dog your chances are much better if go to a line whose breeder’s goal is showing. Don't believe me just ask any show breeder. In addition the chances of having a show line that works replicating itself is almost nil because of what’s behind that dog, in that its pedigree were first selected because of a particular phenotype. That is why the two lines are seldom mixed.

I've just been through this myself, so for what it is worth... I'm attaching some GENERAL information given to me by the breeder from whom we purchased our GSD. I personally like the german dogs better - whether working or show lines; I think they look better and have been bred more responsibly than some American lines. JMO... Depending on where you live, if you are interested in a breeder in Ohio I'll be glad to pass along the name/kennel from where we purchased our pup - just send me a PM. I hope this information clarifies some things for you!

"There are German working line dogs and German show line dogs. To over simplify the differences; German SHOWLINE dogs are better looking (to many); often black and red with a more sloping top line.

Showline dogs can achieve working schutzhund titles but usually are not be as driven or hard edged or work oriented as working line dogs. Working line dogs lack the beauty/ refinement of show line dogs; more square built, flat backed, often are sable/ gray or black or might be black and tan or blanket backs with black covering the majority of their body. They are bred for work with beauty being secondary. At 8 weeks they might climb a 6 foot high chain link kennel to get out then hang from the arm of your coat like little pirayanas and not let go for anything! <SERIOUSLY/ have seen it!!!

They often have more drive than show line pups which can make them more well suited for police/serious proptection/ high level schutzhund work. They may be too drivey or too hard for a family home who wants a companion who can get an akc good citizens certification, visit a nursing home, or wants a dog who is fine chilling in the house and doesn't need to be worked constantly.

A showline dog might pass one Schutzhund 3 test then be shown in confirmation or sieger shows (and tested more lightly twice a year only in a national sieger show) where as a working line dog could be tested and trialed dozens of times every year and the helpers are much harder.

In general (and there are many exceptions) for any family home like yours a German showline dog is much better as your primary focus with Falcon is not Schutzhund every moment and working every day.

If you were a cop and wanted a dog who had to apprehend criminals or were wanting to compete nationally in working trials then a harder working line dog would be better. If not given a job to do and trained a working line dog can more easily become a liability. They are bred to be driveyer, harder, a bit more aggressive; they are a different type of gsd than a showline dog.

Some working line people/trainers/ helpers are all about the drive, work, and hardness of their dogs and don't care for most showline dogs at all. SHOWLINE people might think working line dogs are ugly or too crazy!

There are great showline and great working line dogs and bad ones as well. We do not breed working line dogs as we have seen that for the average family they can be too drivey and a mismatch. Its kinda like the Mallonois; they can be great family dogs but in general will have too much drive and eagerness for many families.

Some clubs and trainers favor the serious hard working line dogs and snub any dog/owner who is show line or not their serious hard edge type. You will have to look at clubs and trainers and see if they consist of all working line dogs. A showline dog can be trained to work but a working line dog will not fare well in a confirmation show.

You cant over generalize as there are showline dogs who excel in protection and working line dogs who are complete babies and are lazy and not drivey at all. But this gives you a general idea on potential differences. Showline dogs are beautiful, level headedness, temperament, health, and trainabilty. Working line dogs are bred for hardness and workability. That is way over simplified but gives you an idea on the differences."

Edited by Connie Sutherland (03/04/2009 08:24 PM)
Edit reason: paragraphs

Thank you that is very helpful information. I am just kind of on the fence between the two lines. I am wanting to train a dog in obedience and tracking, but it will also be a house dog that needs to be manageable indoors. If anyone else has information or an opinion feel free to post.

My Erika is from working lines and she settles into the house just fine......after I beat her down with a two by four

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Paragraphs.......please!!