I seriously apologize for a mini-novel! It's a bad habit of mine but I like to add in all the information I can.

I'm not sure exactly if this fits perfectly into this category but I will put it here. As some of you may have seen I posted in a thread about training my BF's( Eric ) white shepherd, Bliz and how he is odd about it. I wanted to add more detail on the subject and get some information.

He's about 6.5 months old now. We've had him since he was 10 weeks old. The breeder we got him from...well..I don't think he was properly socialized. She had a ton of dogs, and they were kept in different groups in pens outside. When Eric went to look him over he was happy and outgoing but when he actually brought him home ( we will not make the mistake to buy from non-reputable breeders again ) he was a completely different dog and was never the same. He had been in a pen with an older female GSD.

Anyway he was totally insecure after that and still is, really. He has been an odd puppy as in, things involving us don't get him excited at all. You can jump around and laugh and clap and try to get him to chase you around but he stands there. He doesn't seem to crave petting, he will come up and stand near you if you call him and let you but that's it. If let out loose he will wander off way away on his own without paying attention to Eric-who spends every day with him. Eric is at home 24/7 and trains him 2+ times a day, short fun sessions but it is slow going. He plays with him alot as well, or tries to.

My pup Reesee picks commands up lightning fast, loves to interact, and has had a strong bond with me since she arrived. She won't let me out of her sight and will play play PLAY! Full of energy. Bliz seems just oddly passive for his age. The most you get is a lazy tail wag or on a lucky day you get jumped on-mainly because as an attempt to bond with him my BF has been trying to roughhouse him to get him excited. Except, that is, when he sees her or another friendly dog. His whole demeanor changes, he acts like a puppy, way more outgoing and excited..animated I guess.

They have never once been allowed to play together and he is never allowed to play with other dogs. Ever. In fact if she is out and within sight of his crate his crate is covered. We did try and walk them together, twice, and have been to a pet supply store with them both but they were separate most of that time. The only time he sees her otherwise is when she is let out to pee, she walks by his crate. I was wondering if we should even limit that and move a crate to a different room.

On one of the walks we stopped my my parents house and I left the room with my dog and he whined piteously for her and I tested just to see if he'd do it for one of us and he had no response other than a glance. Even for Eric who spends so much time with him.

He is food motivated but doesn't seem interested unless he smells hotdog or something smelly on you beforehand. If he doesn't he doesn't get into the session. He will play with a ball and watch you intently if you have it in your hand but chasing is lazy and and doesn't seem to match the stare intensity. We play recall games with him and he seems to do ok with that.

What I am looking for, is some thoughts and input on the whole situation. How can we help him unfold and bond to us? Games to play, maybe build confidence? Is he doggie and if so, how could he still be so strongly bonded to dogs with almost zero interaction? Eric keeps asking me this and I keep saying just give it time, but I'm really not sure.

Thank you so much for your time and if you struggled through this huge post and our ignorance because I know it's our fault.

~Heather

Leave him in the crate as much of the day as you can without him peeing in the crate. When you take him out leash him and be the most fun thing in the world.

Feed him half his meal quantity for a week or two, so he's nice and hungry and more food motivated. Use the smelliest food you have for OB. He likes hotdogs? Use hotdogs.

Every time you take him out of the crate do some fun food-based OB with him for about a minute. Put him in the crate again immediately after OB. Potty sessions are separate from OB sessions. Likewise for potty, he goes out, he pees, poops, back in the crate immediately. All on-leash so he doesn't get to wander off and explore and make his own fun.

Make sure there is a strong contrast between "being away from daddy" and "being with daddy." Being away from his owner is the dullest, most boring, mind numbing thing there is, but when that crate gets opened, boy is it fun!

Obviously you and your BF are anxious and worried about the situation. The pup picks up on this too. So you need to get over it and just accept the way he is, whether you can "fix" it or not.

You're comparing him to a higher drive more energetic dog and worrying. There's nothing to worry about. Not all dogs are made equal, not all dogs are super social and not all dogs have drive. Bonding with a dog with a higher drive is much easier because you can trigger the dogs enthusiasm, and they associate this enthusiasm with you. A low drive dog is a lot more work because its harder to trigger the enthusiasm.

As he matures he'll get better, but don't be surprised if it takes a few years. Not because its irreparable damage, but because you need to wait for adulthood to settle in. Right now he's still in stupid puppy phase.

I second all of Mike's great (as usual) advice.

As the puppy matures, Building Drive and Focus may be a good choice of DVD for you. All dogs have some level of drive. Through work, you can bring out whatever drive is there, and hopefully intensify it.

Not letting the dog get "free" stimulation in his environement, as Mike suggested, will also make a tremendous difference.
If the dog is low in drive, he may be depleting what he has simply trotting around the house or yard. Making sure that EVEYRTHING remotely fun happens with you, directly because of you, will help the pup see you as the source of fun. Eventually the dog will get more excited.

Some lines (and even just some dogs FROM some lines) are slow to really "develop" drive. I'm sure it's in there somewhere, but it seems to lay dormant until closer to 12-18 months.

 Quote: heather perring

We did try and walk them together, twice, and have been to a pet supply store with them both but they were separate most of that time.

What happened when you walked them together?

I did not read your original post about this pup, but the above jumped out at me from this post. It seems to me, and this is *just my opinion*, that keeping them separate at all times, if there is no aggression, is an unnatural way to live in a pack.

If it seems unnatural to you, surely this feeling is transmitted to the dog. Normalizing your life and maybe allowing some puppy time might be helpful (in essence, not building so much frustration for the other dog...balancing it a bit so to speak) ?

I do agree with what Mike has written too. You have to KNOW you are more interesting than *any* other dog. Worrying that you might not be "all that and a bag of chips" to the dog is doing you guys no favors.

Right now, I have two nine month old pups. They LOVE each other and love to whomp and play and have "puppy wiggle" time. I did not allow this for the first 2 weeks I brought the new girl in. However, I started in with walks together. Long walks, then 10 mins of play time after. Then it was Focus on me time. Treats in hand, we do some "LOOK". Also, teaching "ENOUGH" if and when they start in on each other. Then its back in the crate and they are worked separately again.

Personally, I feel this together time is important, as it is how I want to live with my dogs. We are working slowly and steadily towards that end goal. Not there yet, but it is coming along. Of course they want to play with each other, and I feel it is important to honor that play time in our "pack".

It is a good feeling to have them both following me and looking to me for what comes next. For inspiration, I can just pull up one of Al Curbow's videos.

Maybe I am off track with what your goals are for this pup. ? I just thought I'd share my thoughts after reading your OP in this thread.

I would let the dogs interact. You see it all the time on the Dog Whispher. The power of the pack. The pup would learn from the other pup how to interact and to gain confidence.

Also I would not push the rough houseing and petting. My GSD has a strong bond with me but at first he was very aloof. Still not a huge fan of petting and coddling. A very dignifyed dog.

It was an adjustment for me because I have always had boxers which is a very exhubeerant breed.

I think the fastest way to overcome his insecurity is with your pup. I know it is not a popular opinion on this board but in this case it makes sence.

While Cesar's methods can be very effective in many situations, something to keep in mind is that Cesar is not a dog trainer.
He works with dogs with behavioral issues, but he doesn't actually train obedience.

The reason this is important to note, is because the "power of the pack" can actually be detrimental in training obedience.
While other dogs CAN model calm, correct behavior, they can also become the dog's sole source of fun and good feelings.

When we train a dog, we capitalize (and manipulate) several of their natural drives to our advantage.

We use food drive, and use treats to motivate our dog. We manipulate their food drive by always training the dog when hungry, witholding food, and even feeding the meal bit by bit during training.

We use prey drive, and motivate the dog with a ball, or a tug. We get the dog so amped to get the toy, that they'll perform for us.

And finally, we use pack drive. Even dogs that have low food or prey drive, have pack drive. ALL dogs have pack drive.
(Don't confuse pack drive, with rank drive).
All dogs have a desire to belong to a pack. They are natural pack animals.

In training, we can use this desire, this drive, to our benefit, just like food and prey drive.

We can teach the dog that the only way to satisfy their natural desire to belong to the pack, is through obedience.
If we let the dog become part of a "dog" pack, however, that drive is satisfied through a source other than the handler, and it becomes impossible to manipulate that drive.

Just as we can't use food drive to train a dog with a full tummy, we can't use pack drive to train a dog that has already satisfied that drive with other dogs.

This is what we mean when we talk about a dog becoming "doggy".
Playing and interacting with other dogs is infinitely more fun that sit, down, come and heel.
Of course, our dogs don't know that, if we don't let them find out.

It is very easy to structure a dog's life so that they believe that obedience training with their handler, is the funnest thing in the entire world.
But not if we let them become doggy.

I believe dogs can spend time together and not become doggy. Especially if you do not allow for it as the "leader". OB can still be the funnest thing. IMO, it is all about striving for balance when you have more than one dog.

I, personally, have zero interest in having 2 dogs who always must be separate. Especially if it is not due to an aggression issue. What fun is that for them or for me?

 Quote: alyssa myracle

This is what we mean when we talk about a dog becoming "doggy".
Playing and interacting with other dogs is infinitely more fun that sit, down, come and heel.
Of course, our dogs don't know that, if we don't let them find out.

The OP's dog in question already knows dogs are fun...they are pulling no wool over this boy's eyes. I think it is much more natural for them to include the other dog at intervals throughout the day (ie: long walks) to normalize life a bit for this boy and get him "on board" with the pack.

Another thing, is tie back in the yard while you play fetch and work ob with the other dog and vice versa. He will learn if you teach him how to focus on you instead of the other dog. IMO, he needs to be given a chance to learn.

I'm not saying throw them together 24/7 by any means, but intervals are necessary IMHO if these dogs live together and there are no agression issues.

 Quote: michele mcatee

I believe dogs can spend time together and not become doggy. Especially if you do not allow for it as the "leader". OB can still be the funnest thing. IMO, it is all about striving for balance when you have more than one dog.

I, personally, have zero interest in having 2 dogs who always must be separate. Especially if it is not due to an aggression issue. What fun is that for them or for me?

You're absolutely right.

Just keep in mind, this pup is acting like a flat tire with people, and then lighting up when he sees other dogs.
So, he's made it very clear where his allegiances lie.

Letting him around other dogs, would only reward his lack of interest in people, wouldn't you say?

 Quote: alyssa myracle

Letting him around other dogs, would only reward his lack of interest in people, wouldn't you say?

Not if the "more responsible" dog is able to learn an "enough" command, or is able to be called away from the "puppy wiggles" with ease. I think in that situation, the dog in question could learn that, yes, people ARE good things and can quite likely learn from the other dog too.

That is the situation I am in with my 2 pups. My one who I've had since a pup is readily called out of "puppy whomp" play time and will come over to me when I call. I treat him, and then the other dog is now looking at me when I do this, so I mark and treat her too. Of course, they HAVE to work on OB separately if I want any further progress in OB. But IMO, this is a win win, realistic situation for my set up and my goals.