My 10.5mo GS is starting to come along well in obedience but unfortunatly when i got her she ad been started in halts and drops with food, i have been able to wean her off the food to a degree but if i dont have some to give on ocasion when training she gets very slack and easily distracted. I went to agility training last thursday night without food using her love of it as a motivation and this went good until she had done the course a few times and decided that other things were more interesting.
Any methodical tips will be greatly appreciated, i have not been steered wrong by this site yet and will take any advice at all!

Ed, do you know of any videos that i can get in Aust that are good? I would love to get some of yours but once you convert the dollars it gets way too expensive for me.
Thank you

I don't have any methodical tips for you, but just a general observation that many dogs will get bored with too much repetition, treat trained or not. If she's showing signs of boredom, then move on to something else, then go back and work on it again later so it seems fresh again.

Hi Julie, can you expand a bit on the reason for wanting to discontinue food as a reward? There are many top trainers that use food througout a dogs career.

Sorry for the lack of info.
The reasons i want to stop is: 1. If i want to trial in the future i can't use food in the ring thus lowering the odds of her doing what i ask when i want her to, 2. She was getting to the point where if there was no food she would not put in any effort to do sit, drop, stand accuratly only when she feels like it. correction when this happens results in "spasticisim".
3. finaly, i want her to work for me and not the food.

Julie,

Food reward should be intermintant, not continuous. By varying the schedule that you reward with food it will increase the rate at which the dog performs the behavior. As the behavior is learned the reward should be less frequent and at irregular times. In all competetive situations the reward used to teach the obedience is not allowed. Even praise is marked down for in the compitition. The people that use e-collars and balls can't use them in competetion. if the reward has been intermitant then the dog will not expect a reward after each task performed and will continue to perform the task based on the idea that it will be rewarded in the future.

If correction results in undesired behavior you are probably correcting too hard for the dog. The only option you have is correction/praise if you don't want to use a reward based system. You can stop the food all at once and just adjust your level of correction to a point where the dog complies and doesn't go "spastic". The level of work may go down with this type of training. Dogs are not altruistic, they work for their own benifit (we won't start that fight again). Without the reward the dog is going to work to avoid the correction (this is the primary idea behind e-collars).

Julie,

Please listen to Richard he is correct.

I have reduced the treat rewards to only when she does something realy well like a very straight halt or realy quick drop. She is getting better at not relying on the food but i did feel that i should get rid of it altogether.
I give her verbal rewards continusly, always telling her she is a good girl, saying yes all the whyle and keeping her attention when moving with little pips and lets go's.
Basicly all im trying to avoid is teaching something that will in the end contradict the circumstances that she will be working in.

Ed has commented in the past that only one in 1,000 dogs have the temperment to use verbal praise only. Not very good odds for you. Pick up a book called purely positive that Ed sells. It is a must read

Julie,

This is a case where the fact that the reward isn't allowed in competition isn't a problem. What you are doing in your method to reduce the food is to go about it the wrong way. Make the food presentation random and infrequent. When the dog goes in to competition it won't be that different since the food is intermittant anyway. By trying to on;y give the food when the dog "does something really well" you are counter training what you want to accomplish. It will make the performance sloppy. Don't go half way either drop the food altogether or go to a more random presentation. The reason you are seeing the dog be more lackadaisical is that you have removed her incentive to work.

Originally posted by Vince P.:
Ed has commented in the past that only one in 1,000 dogs have the temperment to use verbal praise only. Is this really true? I'm just curious. Thanks.