I apologize in advance for the length of this post- I want to try to get all the pertinent information in.

I currently have seven dogs (five are mine, two are fosters), and six of them are no problem at all. The seventh (mine) I just cant seem to get a handle on. I feel like I am missing the third number on a combination lock. Im sooo close, but I cant get it open )

I trained horses for many years, so I am familiar with herd (or pack) mentality...how members of the pack subtly test for rank, and try to move up in the pack. I understand that it is important to be the dominant member in the relationship, especially with a dominant animal, and I think I accomplish this most of the time.

I adopted the problem dog (a lab/australian shepherd mix, about 100 lbs.) a year and a half ago, when he was 11 months old, and brought him home to be a companion to my 12 yr old lab mix. He has a VERY strong prey drive (killed a gopher the first week), and I could see even then that he was very strong both mentally and physically, so I have kept a firm hand on him from the beginning.

The first day the old dog tried to take the bone he brought with him (my mistake), and he went after her, so I took him by the nape of the neck and put him on the ground. (I know from reading this site that is not recommended, but he has never shown the slightest human aggression. In fact, when he is at home, I can put him on the ground with a hard stare.)

At home, I have very few problems with him. He and the old dog have had a couple of power struggles (she used to be top dog), but in general he does what I tell him, and he does not have conflicts with my other dogs. I have even seen a small foster dog stick its head in his food bowl, without him doing a thing (I removed the dog, of course.)

So much for Dr. Jekyll. )

Mr. Hyde comes out when I take him anywhere in public. I started out walking him with a choke chain, but I might as well have been using a string. Any time he saw another (dominant) dog on the trail or in a yard by the road, he JUMPED at them, and it was all I could do to hold him back, and not be yanked over.

So I got a Halti for him, and it helped quite a bit to be able to control his head, and keep him from sniffing the ground and getting excited. It was a familiar technology for me - I have halter broken a lot of horses, so know how to use the leverage effectively.

In fact, I thought he had progressed enough for me to be able to take him to a park for an adoption dog reunion. I put both the halti and the choke chain on him, and I thought I could control him, and desensitize him to strange dogs, by having him lie beside me while the other dogs moved around (this approach worked well with my small dogs.) I was wrong. (

Instead, in the course of the reunion he lunged at other dogs four or five times, and twice succeeded in actually pulling me to the ground. He did not get away from me, or succeed in attacking the other dogs, but he seemed to get progressively worse, rather than better. as the day went on. He did not attack all dogs, just certain ones, and I dont think he actually wanted to hurt them, just put them in (what he considers) their place.

I could break his concentration at first, but by the afternoon, he was redirecting his hostility toward my other dog when he was not able to reach his target. Obviously, this is NOT acceptable.

So...this is where we are at, now. I just received my dominant dog collar in the mail, and gave it a test run on him in the yard. I considered ordering the prong collar, but he is already excitable, and after reading more, I decided against it.

I would love to hear any thoughts from people who are more familiar with big, dominant dogs than I am. I have had a lot of dogs in my life, but this one has been the biggest challenge I have ever had.

This dog doesn't sound like he's being very dominant. It sounds more like he may be uncomfortable in the presence of some other dogs. Take notice of the dogs he's reacting to: Are they looking at your dog? Are they excitable? I haven't met any dog that would lunge at another dog to 'put them in their place'. I suspect that more than likely your dog was in an "I'll get you before you get me" mind set. Prey drive is a completely separate thing from dominance (re: the gopher).

This idea is supported by the fact that he got worse as the day wore on, finally ending with him redirecting on your other dog. He sounds like he may have been quite stressed.

IMHO haltis and choke chains are pointless. I've trained both horses and dogs (horses much longer than dogs, actually) and the way they think is VERY different. A horse is a prey animal that needs the 'grounding' effect of the halter. A dog, being a predator who's face and mouth have such primal value is likely to only resist and resent the pressure on his face, even after being conditioned to accept it. Best case scenario, it still provides no consequence for obnoxious behavior.

I think the DD collar is a good choice. I think a prong may be something to consider also, because of the size of your dog. If a dog is dragging you to the ground he's not respecting you at all, no matter the circumstance. I would also GRADUALLY introduce him to being around other dogs, starting from a distance that does not cause him to react. The more "practice" he gets at throwing tantrums and knocking you off your feet, the more firmly ingrained the behavior becomes. Don't give him opportunities to practice this behavior.

Start gradually, and teach him behaviors like "look" and "heel" so he knows them by rote. He needs to learn to pay attention to YOU and listen to what YOU want him to do. It takes a long time and a lot of patience, but there is no short cut for working with leash reactivity.

Even before all of that I would implement a "nothing in life is free" program with this dog.

Yes, NILIF is the standard in my house. )

I only mention the prey drive because he is SO focused on other animals. When I walked him with the choke chain, it was like I didnt even exist once he saw another animal..goats, too, but mostly dogs. (I tried to find a herding group nearby, so he could use up some energy in a positive manner, but I was unsuccessful.)

He is EXTREMELY high energy, although he has calmed down some since he turned two. I know he should be focused on me, not the animal, but I have not been able to accomplish this.

I have always made him stop and sit (or even lie down) when he started reacting to another dog. (With the choke chain, that took considerable force, with the halti, much less.)

The common denominator in the dogs he goes after seems to be that they are excited or dominant. Mostly big dogs set him off, but some pushy small ones, also. The dog can be fifty feet away, on the other side of a fence, but he still reacts.

He was able to pull me down at the picnic because a lab came up from behind a person, and I did not see him, so I was unprepared for him to lunge (and he is SUCH a big dog). Once I got up, I asked the people to bring their dog back (my dog scared them and they moved away). I then asked him to sit a few feet from the dog, which he did.

Do you think this is the wrong approach?

By "stressed" do you think perhaps he is afraid of the other dog?
He has always seemed so confident to me.

Do you have any ideas on how I could introduce him to strange dogs without him reacting? The walking paths near my home go by the other houses, each of which has multiple dogs, and most of the dogs out walking with their owners are dragging them, so obviously not well controlled.

I know heel, but what is "look"?

 Quote: shelly gonzalez

.... He was able to pull me down at the picnic because a lab came up from behind a person, and I did not see him, so I was unprepared for him to lunge (and he is SUCH a big dog). Once I got up, I asked the people to bring their dog back (my dog scared them and they moved away). I then asked him to sit a few feet from the dog, which he did. ... Do you think this is the wrong approach? ... By "stressed" do you think perhaps he is afraid of the other dog? ... Do you have any ideas on how I could introduce him to strange dogs without him reacting? ... I know heel, but what is "look"?

Yes, I do think that's the wrong approach. "Stressed" means that the dog is not at all comfortable around other dogs. I don't understand why you want to introduce him to strange dogs. "Look" means for the dog to focus on you.

Kristel said this: I would also GRADUALLY introduce him to being around other dogs, starting from a distance that does not cause him to react. The more "practice" he gets at throwing tantrums and knocking you off your feet, the more firmly ingrained the behavior becomes. Don't give him opportunities to practice this behavior.

This does not mean meet and greet. It means "being around other dogs at a distance where he does not react."

The sink or swim idea of a reunion at a park with a bunch of other dogs is the opposite of this, and is what Kristel means by The more "practice" he gets at throwing tantrums and knocking you off your feet, the more firmly ingrained the behavior becomes. Don't give him opportunities to practice this behavior.

If you can refocus your whole approach to socializing to mean "resulting in a dog who is not reactive to other dogs" instead of "resulting in a dog who frolics with a group of strange dogs," then you'll see what Kristel (and others) will be trying to say.

Have you done any marker work? Here's an example of beginner desensitizing: At whatever the non-reactive distance from another (controlled) dog is, do positive basic ob work.

I would completely remove from my goal set the idea that this dog should be forced to meet strange dogs on an up-close-and-personal basis, and replace it with a goal of indifference and nonreactivity.

Can you explain in detail the "power struggles" between this dog and the foster?

And also how the at-home management of seven dogs goes? How are they separated in order for packs not to form and the dogs not to form and re-form with dog pack leaders in place of you (human pack leader)?

You did good by understanding that this is a problem and explaining it well, by the way.

I dont expect him to meet and play with other dogs, I only want him to be able to be in the vicinity of other dogs without jumping at them.

I have visions of taking him to the vet, and having to sit in the parking lot, rather than the waiting room, because I cant control my dog. So I agree that the goal is indifference.
I am not a dog park person. )

I took him to the picnic planning NOT to introduce him to other dogs, but to have him sit on the edge of the activity, and watch from a distance, in order to desensitize him. The problems we had were with other dogs approaching him.
Later in the afternoon (when he did his snapping at my dog) the dogs were not approaching him, but were probably 20 feet away. I guess he had just had enough at that point.

I am not familiar with marker work - I have not done obedience training, just basic manners, so I will research that.

The power struggles with my original dog involved him jumping on her and pinning her to the ground. He has done this three times - once the first day (my fault for allowing a bone into the equation), again about eight months ago (I was not home, but my mother saw it) when he bruised the older dog badly, and the third time about a month ago. I was there the third time, and kicked him off of her before he could do any damage, and put him on the ground. There have been no conflicts since then.

I basically have two packs - the three big dogs and four small dogs. I keep the small dogs in a separate yard, because I do not trust him with them, unsupervised. They can all interact through the fence, and I allow them to mix when I bring the big dogs in to feed and brush them at night. That way I am right there if there is any problem (so far there has not been).

A few times a small foster dog has escaped into the big dogs yard and tried to play with them, but they tend to play too rough, and the dog is usually glad to get back into the small pack. )

I only foster small dogs at this point, because my two small dogs are well balanced and well behaved, so I can easily bring in new dogs and train them.

I would like to foster big dogs, because I am out in the country and have a large area for them to run, but I do not because of him.

At the point where the dog was no longer able to sit 20 feet away (or even when I realized that strange dogs were off leash), I'd probably have put the dog into the car and left as soon as I could gracefully do so.

The dog needs to be separated from the one he attacks in your home. The three times were all warnings, and should be heeded, regardless of the period of quiet you have seen.

As far as walks go, again, I would work with the dog daily on focus (on you) under no distraction, then mild distraction, and so on, and I'd probably walk him at a time or in a place when other dogs were unlikely to appear (for now).

If other dogs did show up, I would march right on by. If I had the option (for now), I would calmly cross the street and avoid any close encounters. I would not do this in a running-away manner, though. I'd be watching up ahead (in a calm in-control manner).

Working at the edge of his circle of reactivity and gradually reducing its size would be a daily goal.

From Kristel: Start gradually, and teach him behaviors like "look" and "heel" so he knows them by rote. He needs to learn to pay attention to YOU and listen to what YOU want him to do. It takes a long time and a lot of patience, but there is no short cut for working with leash reactivity.

These behaviors are started at home, under no distraction, and practiced daily before any distraction is introduced (and other dogs in his face are level-10 distraction).

If necessary (I don't know how close you will be able to get to strange dogs with desensitizing), then correcting the dog before he even knew he was about to stare at a strange dog would be another goal -- that is, the instant his attention wavered from me and drifted towards another dog. It would not be when he had already transferred his focus and started staring and hackling.

As far as the packs at home go, you didn't ask for guidance on that, so I would just offer the observation that packs DO form hierarchies and that the pack leader is not going to be you. This is something that I'd probably re-think .

Yeah-thats the point when I decided we should really go. )
I would say none of the dogs got closer than four feet from him all day. That was the distance he had to jump to get to them.

I will see if I can figure out where the limits of his reactivity are - I know he reacts to dogs going by on the other side of the street, and that is about 150 ft away from my fence.

I'll start training in the yard, and maybe I can take him somewhere else with fewer dogs around. On my street one side is lined with yards full of dogs, and the other side of the street has walking paths with people walking their dogs, so its almost impossible to avoid distractions.

I saw another thread where someone recommended using treats to redirect the dog when she focused on other dogs. Do you think that might be helpful in his case?

I will figure out a way to isolate the old dog, if you think there is a genuine danger there. She lived with two other large dogs - a 120 lb Rottweiler and a 100 lb Lab mix - before this one, without any problems, but she is 14 yrs old and very fragile now, so there is no point in taking chances. I figured separating her would make her less a member of the pack, and more of a target. I thought it would be better for me to defend her, but I may be wrong.

Oh, I agree, when I am not home, there is a pack hierarchy apart from me. I call my rat terrier the "assistant manager". )
But the conflicts are minimal, and do not allow him to discipline anyone when I am home. I walk the dogs together, so when I am home the packs are both mine, and everybody obeys me.

Once in a while the rat terrier gets a bit too big for his britches, and needs to be taken down a notch, but generally he is very good.

I bring home new dogs on the weekend, so I have two days to establish them in the pack with myself as leader before leaving them alone together. Ive brought home ten problem foster dogs in the last year, and my small dogs have actually been a big help. The only difficulty I had was when I brought home a foster dog who bit. I had to put my other dogs away in order to work with him - when he went after me they all wanted to take him out.

Marker work does indeed involve high-value treats. If you want to start another thread about how to start, please do!

http://leerburg.com/219.htm
http://leerburg.com/308.htm

I do definitely think that the dog who has been harassed and attacked needs separation from her tormentor, and that it's the pack leader's job to ensure that pack members do not live with anxiety or fear about other members. "Genuine danger" is only a part of it; quality of life is just not there when she is free game.

Okay.

She doesnt act like she is afraid of him - she hangs out in the yard with the other two dogs every night.

She spends her days in the insulated garage with a doggy door, and she "owns" it. He will not go inside unless she allows it.

She was top dog for years, and she may have instigated the recent fight (she definitely started the first fight over the bone- she tried to take it from him.)

But she obviously cant handle a dog twice her size and a fraction of her age, and I do not want to see her hurt.

I looked at the marker training, and I think that may be the missing number I have been looking for.)
I'll order the DVD.

Thanks