I have a 6 1/2 mth old malinois. She is VERY "crittery" and would love to get to my beloved 2 year old cat. I keep them separate, not allowing the dog to even see the cat to keep her frustration level at bay. I am very confused with the ecollar training in regards to the cat. I would like to use the collar with care and Roni Hoff posted some very nice foundation work for using the collar. My malinois has some basic obedience, good recalls, sits, downs, and beginning stays, but she has quite a prey drive and I am sure that eventually I will need the ecollar for calling her off chasing other animals. The foundation work is so important because the dog needs to understand where the stimulation is coming from and what it is about. But Ed Frawley also mentions that when using the ecollar for chasing the cat you are not supposed to say anything (like "leave it"). So isn't the dog still going to realize that the stim is coming from you when you zap her for even looking at the cat...being that you have done this type of foundation work. Also, how long must one train "positively" before one can use the collar in "correction" mode. She is young so I need to be gentle but also there is much disharmony in the household because I must keep the dog and the cat separate at all times. Can I use the corrections for the cat right away or should I wait until she has enough training on her?

My Rottie tried to chase my horses from day one. When I caught her hanging from one of my horses tail for the second time I called my friend a K9 trainer if Florida. He told me to buy an E-collar and start putting it on her several times a day in positive situations before I drove down to Fl a couple of weeks later.
She wore the collar on and off, inside and out for a couple of weeks but it wasn't even turned on. When I got down to FL the K9 trainer came out to the barn (yes, I brought my horses too) and HE took the remote. He watched her, zapped her three times. Twice with one horse, once with the second horse. The timing is CRUCIAL, the zap has to come when the dog focuses on whatever you don't want it to focus on. When I got back home I zapped her once more with one of the horses, and twice with my cats.
The timing is the ting... If you time it right the dog will believe that the animal does it. That's the whole point of not saying anything. My girl may run after a cat that runs, but if the car hisses (or like mine, growl LOL) she'll jump back and just look at it. It's the CAT that zaps her in her mind. That also means that I don't have to keep an eye on her at all times, the cat takes care of it himself.

Interesting....I think what I am really worried about is that she WILL think that it is coming from the cat and then decide that she is going to GET the cat....she is a very bold malinois! I will also need to use it for recalls while off leash and to be able to call her off of other animals...so I was just confused on how to combine teaching the ecollar for "commands" vs. "avoidance" like the cat.

My girl is very confident and bold. When the neighbors dogs comes to the fence (2 or 3 dogs) to growl and bark if I come too close) she calmly comes up 5-10 feet from the fence, between me and it, and just stands there looking at them. After a few seconds at least one, sometimes all, will start whining and go home. LOL First time I took her to a herding lesson she was 7 months not at all afraid of the sheep like all the other young dogs. There were three in the group when she got into the ring, she caught one and started dragging it before I got over my shock and hollered "give". The clinician had never seen a dog with as strong prey drive she said. Mandy is very bold, but leaves at least her horses and cats alone. She's not trustworthy with other cats adn horses though, I would have to zap her again so the collar still comes on ever so often just so I'd be prepared if I needed to use it.

I haven't used the e-collar for training, I'm not sure I'd have the timing right. She is two years old next month and I have 5 acres she can run on and I have a 100% recall. She loves treats and the ball, from the beginning I used both to make it fun to come to me and I NEVER called unless I thought she'd come and could make her if she didn't. Now she drops what she's doing to come immediately every time I call her. I still call her randomly just to fuss over her and let her go again.

Susan;
I teach an "off" command, similiar to a "leave it" in application. I teach off in the very first appointment along with come, and wait. Ninety seven percent of the dogs I work with, have a tail wagging attitude! The other three percent are wagging their tails by the next appointment.
Calling your dog off of "critters" is basically one of dealing with distractions, therefore there must be a level of competentacy. I am very fair with the dog, setting up the situations where I believe he will succeed. He must wear a leash at first, followed by a long line. Once the dog has had a period of exhibiting understanding of the word, then I increase the distraction level. Side note: The level that I use on the collar is changing all the time based upon the dog's drive level and his ability to respond.
I use the e-collar in a very differnt way than most trainers, in that I use the stim with marker training, and whatever else I can to accelerate the learning with the dog, all without compromising my principles. Attitude is everything with me, so I tailer the training based upon genetic make up, environmental
sensitivity, previous training and drives.
Hope this helps,
Happy Training,
Roni
PS I can always use the collar for a "correction" if I need it.
I do not start with corrections, as I don't believe in correction
based training. If the dog doesn't understand to leave critters alone, then he should not be enabled to "get himself in trouble"
PS> Only my opinion!

Thanks so much for responding to this thread Roni. My mal really understands "leave it"...have been using it for months. I use it with the cat, I will have my dog in a room chewing a bone and bring the cat in. If she even looks at her I say "leave it". Sometimes I will put the cat in the dogs crate and play a really good game of tug with her as a distraction. But I find she STILL wants to get to the cat. So I can call her off the cat but not once the chase has begun (I never let that situation even happen anymore....by keeping kitty in my bedroom). I am planning on starting the ecollar training today. I have been conditioning her to the collar for a few weeks. Should I start with the basic commands, sit, down, come? How would I actually use it (and when) in regards to the cat, and how would that look in application? Would I use a voice command like "leave it" in conjunction with the stim. Like saying it 3 times and nicking her 3 times? What if she doesn't comply? I just think with dogs with crazy prey drive that there is sometimes no amount of "leave its" that would get them to comply....chasing kitty(or whatever) is just waaaay more rewarding than even a piece of filet mignon. I have been living in my household in much disharmony due to the constant "wondering where the cat is" of the dog. I take her outside and play and play and do other fun learning games but it does not seem to take away from this other energy. I really want to resolve the cat issue soon because it is very much taking a toll on me and the energy inside of the house.

Did I read that you put the cat in the dog's crate?

If not, disregard this statement, but IMO that is VERY much teasing and putting the cat in undue danger.

I have a lot of experience w/SERIOUSLY cat-driven dogs and I do know what you are going through. You will be able to proof the dog around the cat using Roni's suggestions. You will probably NOT be able to proof the dog, EVER, when you are not in the room. JMHO. I would rather err on the side of "the cat lives."

I am just not clear on what Roni's training suggestions were in actual application in terms of proofing the cat. Yes, I did put the cat in the dogs crate, oh boy, didn't realize the wrongness in that. But it was only for a few minutes and the dog was chewing a bone and I stood in between the crate and the dog so that if she even looked at the cat I would tell her to "leave it". I think that is why Ed and Cindy's suggestions for the cat situation are so different....and why they stim the dog and say absolutely nothing. Low stim for a look at the cat and high stim for going after the cat. Two different methods in training for crittering and I am not sure which one to go with. I have traded emails previously with Cindy when purchasing an ecollar and she starts her pups around 4 to 5 months old for off leash walks and chasing cats, chickens, etc.

Susan;
I'm not sure what you're question is? I want my dog to leave cats, skunks, deer, cars, horses. When I have reached "a" level of training, I can say off and my dog will totally ignore the distraction. My personal dog has crazy drive and I have dealt with drives for a number of years. This works, IF you put the time in and are consistant. I raise and lower the stim depending on how the dog is responding or not responding. Some people use the recall to get their dog's attention and therefore ignore "critters". Hope this clears up your confusion.
Happy Training,
Roni

 Quote: susan herskowitz

I have a 6 1/2 mth old malinois. She is VERY "crittery" and would love to get to my beloved 2 year old cat. I keep them separate. My malinois has some basic obedience, good recalls, sits, downs, and beginning stays, but she has quite a prey drive and I am sure that eventually I will need the ecollar for calling her off chasing other animals.

I wish I could offer advice about the ecollar however I have never used one, but that is what we have Roni for And nobody does it better.

I am curious to know what type of training you have done in conjunction with the cat up to this point? My personal opinion is at 6 months; I'd continue to manage her environment so she does not have the opportunity to give chase and work with her in increasingly distractive situations to build her reliability and when I was certain she understood exactly what was expected of her but the prey overruled her ability to obey; I would introduce the ecollar.

I'm interested to see what other advice you get because my dog has a lot of prey drive and with years of work and practice I can call him off in chase but it took literally years and I think the ecollar would have been a wonderful tool. With that being said I still don't think at 6 months I had put enough work in to warrant its use. I could be completely wrong though (it wouldn't be the first time )

And I agree with Jenni I would never consider my dog cat proofed or any small animal proofed if I was not present; considering my dog that would be an unrealistic goal.