We were at a BBQ yesterday. Luc was invited.

The hosts own a rescued beagle (10 years old, they have had her for 8 years) who has overcome a lot of aggressive behaviours but doesn't like kids. She doesn't tend to love other dogs either, but she and Luc did fine other than one time where Luc must've walked too close to her at that point (since they sniffed each other multiple times without incident) and she snapped but that was it.

However, there was a little girl at the BBQ, maybe 8 years old. The beagle does not like little kids.

I'm sure the beagle was stressed out with having people over, another dog being there (however inocuous Luc is), etc. The little girl had been trying to pet the beagle a few times and had been warned she didn't like that. The girl had been petting Luc though (she was shy at first, but she was so happy that he was friendly with her and enjoyed the petting) and after petting Luc successfully she tried petting the beagle again. The beagle turned and loudly tried to nip her (I didn't see it, just heard it). I think one of the owners may have been trying to calm the dog down when it happened.

I know how the incident could've been prevented, so that's not what I'm asking.

The hosts (friends of mine) have a 4 month old baby. Right now the dog doesn't get to interact with her, which, great. However, they are thinking that when their baby gets a bit bigger it would be best if the dog (who is a nice dog, otherwise) goes to live with Grandma and Grandpa, b/c they are worried about a mobile child around their dog.

I'm thinking this isn't an unfair assessment - I wouldn't be comfortable trusting the dog around a mobile toddler either - I know they could practice separation instead, but are there ways to desensitize the dog to make it trustworthy, or better?

I was also going to send my friend's Ed's articles on children/infants and kids.

I wouldn't be too optimistic, esp. since you are dealing w/an elderly rescue dog. Not only do you have no idea of it's genetics, but you have no idea of it's experiences prior to their home.

As far as desensitizing...I will let the rescue people chime in. I don't have the patience for that sort of thing. I would say this; no matter how much progress you THINK you made and how great the dog becomes 99% of the time, under serious stress, that dog is going to fall back on its genetics.

This does not sound like a dog I would trust around kids, and if the dog can be *fairly* kept separated, then great. Otherwise, if separating the dog from the child means the dog gets the short end of the stick and ends up isolated instead of separated, then I don't think Grandma and Grandpa's is a bad idea.

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

...but are there ways to desensitize the dog to make it trustworthy, or better?

If this doesn't get answered, I will bump and bump. I have two that can't be trusted. NOT that I want to go to all the work to desensitize...one way to old and set in his ways, the other has other issues that need work.

Jennifer, I have tried to think of ways to mark Lucy's letting Austin pet her. I just can't see that it would make much sense to try. What if something worse happens than Hambone's teeth smacking Austin earlier this year? I wouldn't try it with a dog this old. BUT, I am not Connie and others on here who have worked with aggressive dogs.

Jenni said it wayyyy better....

Edited by Jo Harker (07/13/2009 03:16 PM)
Edit reason: Giving Jenni props

Yeah, and they've been hoping that she would mellow with age - she has, actually, but not about kids.

I'm inclined to agree with you. I'm not sure they'd be able or willing to practice fair separation - it's a lot of work, they do separate now, but there baby isn't mobile yet obviously. Grandma and Grandpa like the dog and have hosted it before, so that may be the best option.

I can't think of anything to do that would make me trust the dog, either, I don't know if anyone can think of any exercises or not. I think I tend to think when it comes to kids and dogs though, better safe than sorry.

Edit: Jo, I was actually thinking of your separation as well. I think you've done a great job of FAIR separation, and you've really put in the time and dedication. But I get what you're saying totally with the possible marker exercises.

And Jo, I was thinking - even in terms of working with aggressive dogs - if we ever have kids, I have worked with Teagan's aggression, and she's never been aggressive towards children, but I see how she looks at them, even fairly large ones - like prey. There's no way I would ever trust her.

....I think really probably there isn't anything that can be done. I agree with you guys and I'm sort of answering my own question here. Kids are more complicated than separating from strange dogs, for instance, and not that a dog attack isn't horrible, but I think there has to be a higher or equal standard of safety in place. Equal, I guess, actually.

Its very hard to protect the dog...
Its instinct to blame the child, blame the dog...
Its HARD to keep them separated and safe...human and canine.
It gets very wearing. hanna and austin have moved out, so the doggies are a LITTLE more accepting of Austin now since he isn't in the "area" 24/7, but Lucy doesn't like anyone under the age of puberty so to speak, so...
Rambling...it isn't worth trying to condition the old gal. Let have her peace.

 Quote: jenni williams

.... if separating the dog from the child means the dog gets the short end of the stick and ends up isolated instead of separated, then I don't think Grandma and Grandpa's is a bad idea.

 Quote: jo harker

Its very hard to protect the dog ... it isn't worth trying to condition the old gal. Let have her peace.

And we're talking about a place where the dog will feel comfortable and not traumatically uprooted, right? No question, then, for me.

And I'm happy that it does exist.

I'd be careful about making sure that everyone involved understands about never trusting them alone together when the baby comes over, etc.

The answer to this "I know they could practice separation instead, but are there ways to desensitize the dog to make it trustworthy, or better?" is yes, both separation and desensitization together, with management, and I would probably still do both even after the move for ease of visits, unless it was obviously just negative for the dog. I agree that training can do wonders, but that high-stress situations (parties, crowds, other dogs, kids running around, mixes of dogs and kids, food down low at dog/kid level, etc.) should just be avoided forever. But that goes for most (maybe all) dogs, IMHO.

And of course it's for the safety of the child(ren), but it's also no favor to the dog to be put into that lose-lose situation.

I enjoy that kind of work. It's rewarding; it can result in a less-anxious, calmer dog. But I don't kid myself about the limits.

 Quote: connie sutherland

but are there ways to desensitize the dog to make it trustworthy, or better?" is yes,
I enjoy this kind of work because it can result in a less-anxious, calmer dog, but I don't kid myself about the limits.

One day I would like to see a primer on how to go about this...

when you get time.>>

 Quote: jo harker

 Quote: connie sutherland

but are there ways to desensitize the dog to make it trustworthy, or better?" is yes,
I enjoy this kind of work because it can result in a less-anxious, calmer dog, but I don't kid myself about the limits.

One day I would like to see a primer on how to go about this...

when you get time.>>

Be sure not to leave out the important word I used: "both." Separation is a big piece. You did a good job with that, and also with the other big piece: management.

The desensitizing/counterconditioning part is individually worked out. Is the dog made anxious by high-pitched screaming, etc.? Or quick movements? Or maybe the dog sees the low-to-the-ground child as a rough playmate, or has been hit by a particular size or sex of child. Or maybe the dog resource-guards, or is afraid to have his head/ears touched, or is very quick to react to being startled awake.

Any (even all) of these can be worked with, with varying levels of success, and that work can make encounters less fraught for everyone. But separation in high-stress situations (and some level of separation always) and permanent management are still crucial.

seperate from kids with kennel and or crate, ain't much else you can do.

I am now convinced it's nearly a hundred percent genetics. I got Max the antisocial from pet lines that I'll never be able to trust around strangers, kids or adults. and I have Roxie from working lines that I got when she was about four or five, lived all her life in a kennel, no socialization, only brought out to do Sch Obed and bite. Some of the training was probably abusive.
I brought her home and she was instant snuggle bunny trying to make up for lost time, loves people and kids. got a ball or a tug toy and she's your friend for life.