I need your guidance! I am at my wits end. Here is the situation:

I got my GSD pup about 4 weeks ago. He is currently 15 weeks old, 40 pounds, lively, good eater. He's well-hydrated- drinks and pees like a champ! But he's had constant either soft, pudding-like stools since I've got him.

The breeder fed him Purina Pro-Plan (gag).... I opted for Natural Balance instead. I put him on the limited ingredient, grain free venison and sweet potato formula. He ate it for about 2 weeks. Stools were dark brown and pudding. At one point they were forming very soft logs, but still holding their shape. So I added probiotics and Clover-Digest brand enzymes. They never seemed quite normal. Some people told me they heard that venison can be too harsh a protein... The reason I went with venison is because my husband and I are hunters and we can take about 6 deer in a season. We know the owners of a butcher shop and we can have them processed any way we want- bones and all. We also can get just about any kind of meat (including organs, hooves, bones,etc.)from this shop. Its a raw feeder's dream! So my long-term goal was to get him on raw venison anyway. I figured that the venison kibble was a good segway to this.

But I let a crackpot vet talk me out of it. I thought that his stool should have improved in the 2 weeks he was eating his venison kibble so we went to the vet. He checked the stool sample and found everything ok. He told me to switch him to a large breed puppy food and don't even consider raw. First I fasted him. About 12 hours (torture) total.I gave him boiled chicken and brown rice for 3 days to rest his bowels. But now instead of dark brown pudding, he had light brownish-yellow pudding, really runny (but not watery) poo, and GAS. I could hear his insides gurgle from across the room.

So after 3 days of the chicken, we tried Blue Buffalo large breed puppy (which is also chicken-based). His poo is the same. He's been on this about a week now. No improvement. I'm so discouraged.

However despite all of this he LOOKS great. His adult fur is coming in beautiful and glossy. He's gained about 20 pounds in the last 4 weeks and tripled in size .. Our only problem is the food.

So I'm more convinced than ever to go raw. Please tell me EXACTLY what to feed and I will follow instructions. I have a freezer full of ground deermeat and a butcher shop basically in my back yard. I think he was doing better with venison than chicken, but I'm totally at your mercy. I've read the whole leerburg site, raw feeding articles, and skimmed through this whole section of the forum for info, so I'm prepared. Hope I included enough details.

Thanks so much!
Jess

 Quote: Jessica Pedicord

... So I'm more convinced than ever to go raw. Please tell me EXACTLY what to feed and I will follow instructions. I have a freezer full of ground deermeat and a butcher shop basically in my back yard.

Whoa!

This sounds like something wrong, and not just a food-choice thing. He had soft stools on several foods, including the soothing-rice regimen.

I absolutely applaud the raw decision, but I would not make any change at all until you have the stool problem resolved. You need to be able to track what causes what, and you can't do that if you make a radical change now. (Also, raw venison is wonderful, but not as the RMB basis --- we can get back to that later, but you are going to need digestible bones as well as the variety of muscle meats into which venison would fit.)

During the fast (or immediately after), what was the poop like?

Have you ever seen formed logs? How long ago? Or was he having pudding poop from day one?

What tests were done? I am asking that particularly if the dog was having pudding from day one -- if he came to you with giardia, for example, then one fecal would be very unlikely to have yielded a diagnosis.

So let's back way up to the last formed log: when, if ever, and on what food? And also what the fast did to his poops (so we can address the possibility of plain old too-much-food-per-meal diarrhea -- very very common).

Also, what is the present appearance of the poop (aside from pudding-y)? What color? Any particularly bad odor? And mucus? Any yellowish parts? Any watery parts? Any can't-hold-it incidents?


eta
We can and will happily guide you step-by-step through the switch to raw.

Alright, I'm going to try to answer all of your questions in the order that you asked them....

His poop during the fast was smaller and frequent (if that makes any sense). In an 12 hour period he probably pooped about 4-6 times in small little soft slivers. There has never been any mucus at all. Ever.

Probably around the end of week two on venison kibble, his stool looked like it was on the verge of hardening. Like if I had just left him on it for a few more days, I bet it would have been ok. But I'm an idiot for not trusting my own instincts- the vet freaked me out. I'm not sure exactly what tests were done. He looked at it under the microscope while we were there (after separated and throwing it in the spinny-thingy) and then sent it out and told me he'd call if he found anything- which he didn't. So I'm not sure. But this is the same vet that also told me to go onto "puppy-chow".... Ugh. I asked if Blue Buffalo Lg Breed would be ok instead. I won't be going back to this moron. Its IMPOSSIBLE to find a good hollistic vet around here. Really. All of the dogs in my area are farm dogs that live on "dog feed" from the farm animal feed stores and have never seen the inside of their master's homes. Ever. But I digress.

So here's the ironic part of the situation.... Right after I posted this, I took him outside and PRESTO- loggy poop. Very soft, but log-shaped. His feedings lately have been mostly Blue Buffalo kibble, with just a touch of rice and chicken (because I am weaning off of the bland diet). Also, the probios and enzymes of course. Last night, while digging through this area of the forum, I decided to cut his feedings in half, guessing that I have been over-feeding. So thats about 1 cup per feeding, 3 times a day.
And bingo, we've just got particularly awesome poop. This is his best-looking poop yet. Of course this wasn't even 15 minutes after my final meltdown when I finally typed up this huge monster post explaining everything.... And several nights of sleeplessness worrying and puzzling over this... My neighbors most definately think I'm nuts, squatting over a pile of dog poop, scratching my head and muttering/laughing hysterically!


Instead of describing in, I'll be over-achieving and just attach a link to a pic of the poo. Its blurry but the best I can do. http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=41515658&albumID=2265724&imageID=65134702

Yes, I know I'm kinda nuts.

OK, I saw the pic and read the posts, and here is what I would do, starting now:

I would go back on the soupy-rice/chicken diet, small frequent meals, until you have perfect logs.

I would not segue into any other food at all until that point. And I would not make a change when they started to look better, but only when I had a couple of days' history of perfect log poop.

I would have mainly soft soupy overcooked white rice, with maybe a fourth of it as white-meat skinless poached poultry, and I would add some plain unsweetened live-culture yogurt to it (when feeding -- so it doesn't get heated up in the food prep).

I would not even think about balance or protein or anything else until I had this history of perfect poops.

Then I would post back here for a step-by-step intro to raw. I would definitely not jump into a multi-item full-fledged raw diet all at once, or even into full-size raw meals all at once. I would religiously follow the outline that you will get here.

A slow and careful protocol now is going to help avoid inflaming this guy's gut again. And there are several folks here who can help, so don't worry that the info will not be on tap.

Michael Wise, for example, can easily step in here (as can many others on this board).

Does that sound OK to you?

And welcome to the board!

Ok, so I will toss out my brown rice and cook up a batch of white. What kind of measurement are we talking, per meal? One cup at a time, or less? He's about 40 lbs right now. Father weighs 100 lbs and mother weighs 80. Anything more than 3 meals a day will be rough because of our work schedules, but I'll slip in a 4th when I can.

I've already got the yogurt, which I'll start adding. I'm assuming you still want him on probios and enzymes?

 Quote: Jessica Pedicord

Ok, so I will toss out my brown rice and cook up a batch of white. What kind of measurement are we talking, per meal? One cup at a time, or less? He's about 40 lbs right now. Father weighs 100 lbs and mother weighs 80. Anything more than 3 meals a day will be rough because of our work schedules, but I'll slip in a 4th when I can.

I've already got the yogurt, which I'll start adding. I'm assuming you still want him on probios and enzymes?

The brown is OK.

How about no enzymes yet so you have him on on the least possible number of ingredients... I would do this just so I could watch the poop with every single ingredient.

I'm not at home with a manual, but the rice diet is usually given as working up to 3/4 (as prepared rice, water included -- not the dry measure) of the equivalent number of cups of kibble (that the dog normally gets). So I would go by the recommended amount on his Blue Buffalo, the lowest end for his weight, 3/4 of that, and divide it into three (or four if you can) meals, just for a couple of days. No more for now than 1/3 cup or so in one meal, though. (For watery poop, more like 1/4 cup max.) If he had instant poop perfection on that, I'd raise it to the amount actually recommended (low end), etc.

Overfeeding per meal is a very common diarrhea trigger, as mentioned before. That's why I am being so conservative. If he's hungry and doing well with his poops, you can add a small meal rather than increasing meal size. Just for now.....

P.S. I'm not a health professional. This is, however, a pretty generally-accepted protocol for a diarrhea-dog with negative fecal and no symptoms of illness.

Meals should be VERY small at first...1/8 - 1/4 cup at the most cup each meal 3-4x a day. If you overfeed you will be right back where you started with very loose stools & an inflamed gut again.

I went thru this about 5 months ago with my female.

 Quote: Jessica Pedicord

...per meal? One cup at a time, or less?

Much less, for at least a day or two.

 Quote: Anne Jones

Meals should be VERY small at first...1/8 - 1/4 cup at the most cup each meal 3-4x a day. If you overfeed you will be right back where you started with very loose stools & an inflamed gut again.

Even better. This can be the almost-fasting day.

eta
I imagine it's clear that we're saying to err on the side of tiny frequent meals.


Edited by Connie Sutherland (10/30/2009 03:58 PM)
Edit reason: eta

Alright, I'll give this a try and post my results as they happen. 1/4 cup a day till we get hard poo. I'll mix in lots of water to help fill his belly. Poor guy.

Its such a contrast to my 5 year old min-pin. She's got an iron stomach. I can give her ANYTHING- raw, cooked, or kibble and she's never had soft stool for as long as I can remember. That dog can EAT....

Welcome back to puppyhood. *sigh*

Thanks so much for your help!