Max
I got a "rescue" 90 pound GS about 5 months ago. He had one incident with his former owner of going through an electric fence to go after a person walking by the house. He did not bite the person but jumped on him. There were a variety of other reasons (allergies) the former owner decided to give him up.

We decided to give him another chance at life.

I have a 6 foot fence in our backyard. I never let him out in the front of the house without a leash. I have spent a lot of time training him and he has responded very well. However as the distraction level goes up he is less likely to respond.

Recently he followed me out the front door without a leash on and immediately ran over to another dog’s yard.
He paid no attention to my commands. He came back in about a minute.

On his way back he ran toward a person walking passed our house, jumped on him and bit him on the arm and then on the leg. The bites were superficial but did break the skin. I was there by that time to restrain the dog from further incidence.

I will be meeting with dog control at the beginning of the New Year. They are very concerned that the attack continued to a second bite.

I should point out that this dog has never shown any other aggressive behavior.
We play tug of war games and he never growls or shows real aggressive behavior.
This is the first dog I have ever had that does not bark at people coming to the front door.
There is no aggressive behavior if I remove his dog food.
When people come up to him on our daily walks, he lets them pet him.
I actually called him a “True Southern Gentleman” by his behavior before this incident.

He is absolutely an a beautiful animal.

Although I hate to think about it, I am leaning towards having the dog uthenized. We were lucky that no one was hurt on this first incident.
I am very concerned about what could possibly happen the next time,; a child running for the school bus, a woman with a baby carriage, etc. I am very concerned about the danger to my neighbors.

The answer is not “Just make sure he is always on a leash”. There are just too many other possibilities.
The garage door or one of the backyard doors may accidentally be left open, etc.

QUESTIONS:
1. Can training eliminate this behavior?
2. What sort of training would it require?
3. Can this training be accomplished by me? Quite frankly, I cannot afford specialized classes.
4. Is there a DVD that specializes in this problem?
5. Can an electric fence deter a 90 pound GS intent on going after another dog or person passing by the house?
6. Any other advice would be greatly appreciated.


Sincerely,

Bill Miller

To start I will say, as others have here, many dogs are in shelters for a reason. Also often many of the owners that give up their dogs are less then exactly honest about the reason for surrendering the dog. This dog may have had greater issues then those stated.

That being said, you know this dog had the 'potential' to be a problem dog with somewhat of an agression issue history. When taking on a dog like this there is generally little room for error in terms of keeping the dog under control at ALL times. It is not an easy task, as you stated, gates left open, doors left open, escapes of one kind or another. These errors are not acceptable with these kinds of dogs.

You also state that the dog works well except under increasing discrations. This is a 100% training issue. Dogs need to be 'proofed' under increasing distractions before you can call them 'trained'. This in not done in a short period of time. I don't know what level of training this dog may had had prior to your ownership. You state that you have had the dog 5 months but not the actual age of the dog. It takes time to build a relationahip with a new dog & time to 'proof' training.

LB does have a DVD about aggressive & dominant dogs. Although this doesn't sound like a dominant dog at all. Not sure from the discription whether the dog was just jumping & nipping this passerby or actually being aggressive toward them. I would think that if a 90# dog wanted to BITE someone they would have been bitten. Sounds more like jumping up & nipping in play/prey drive. But that is hard to tell without having seen the whole episode.

Not sure why you waited a minute for the dog to return to you & why you didn't go & retreive the dog when he ran to the neighbors & didn't return immediately when you recalled him. Especially knowing this dogs supposed history. That was wrong. When a dog doesn't recall you go & get them. (but then a dog without a reliable recall (at least 90% of the time) should NEVER be in a position to fail, by not coming when called ie: on a line all the time) A dog on a leash or long line doesn't have the chance to fail a recall by not coming. Each time that they 'get away' with not coming when called, they LEARN that coming when called is optional. IMO recall is NOT optional. Dogs should only have the option to obey commands.

An invisible fence is no guarantee that the dog won't run thru it with enough insentive to do so. Then you have a dog at large that has no insentive to cross that line to return to the yard.

It would be in your best interest, if you decide to keep this dog, to have a reputable trainer that has esperience with aggression, evaluate this dog for aggression issues.

I'm not sure if you are able to 'manage' a dog with these kinds of issues, as your statement that he has already 'escaped' the house & fenced yard. It takes a great deal of thouhgt & attention to detail, at all times, to be sure that this type of dog is under control completely at all times. There is NO margin for error on this.

JMO & some food for thought.

ETA...the behaviors that you described of the dog with you, not growling when playing tug, taking food away etc are all with you & if were a problem would be a dominance problem, not aggression. Dogs with aggression issues don't have to be dominant or handler aggressive to be aggressive to others.

YOU let the untrained dog out the door and at large. YOU didn't mention one single training measure you've taken in 5 months. Why do you think he'd pay attention to any commands? Does he even know what you mean when you give him a specific command? When you got the dog did you think it should just know how to act? Until it's trained the answer IS that it has to be on leash and in control.

Sounds like an easy enough fix but will go the way that many go......blue juice. Tough luck for the dog, Oh well. Happens 1,000's of times a day.

I'll tell you, i always feel for the dogs that are involved in a story like this. Basic obedience is so simple to do and it could probably save tons of decent dogs that are actually worth saving vs mental cases that can't be but are euthinized instead of folks putting in that tough 10 minutes a day.

Of course if you're whithin driving distance of south central CT you are more that welcome to come and train!

Edited by Al Curbow (12/26/2009 02:02 PM)
Edit reason: added info

Mr. Miller,

Killing the dog is not the answer or an option I would personally pursue. I mean, after all, you did let the dog out even if accidentally, and as a result of your lapse in supervision the dog, of protecting the dog...

That out of the way... You asked the following questions:

QUESTIONS:
1. Can training eliminate this behavior?
Eliminate? No. But training creates conditions of conditioning and more behaviorial certainty. I speak from experience, and experience with an incident very similar to yours.

2. What sort of training would it require?
A lot of training and dedication to working with the dog. The amount of training and the depth of training has more to do with your willingness to have a well trained dog - any dog. You should understand that without training, and confidence in that training, you can experience the same behavior with almost any dog.

3. Can this training be accomplished by me? Quite frankly, I cannot afford specialized classes.
Of course it can be accomplished by you - if you want to, and you want to spend the time. This site offers all kinds of training aids; and there is always the books by the Monks, and by Ceasar. Bluntly it won't require super specialized training because I don't think you have anything other than a dog that needs training, exercise, rules, boundearies, adherence to commands, etc. In other words, he needs the same effort any one would spend to train their dog well.

4. Is there a DVD that specializes in this problem?
You have come to the right site. Absolutely. But you should not think you have a man killer on your hands. You have a dog that needs training. Lots of products here that will help you understand training and then the execution of training.

5. Can an electric fence deter a 90 pound GS intent on going after another dog or person passing by the house?
I'm a fan of 5' or 6' chain link fences, myself. People have success with the electric fences and collars - they are just not my style. And a well conditioned command set can and will pay off as much as a fence. I use a fence to keep the riff-raft out.

6. Any other advice would be greatly appreciated.
Educate yourself. Before you can train the dog you need to know how to train the dog. The dog will do what you train if you are fair, consistent, patient, not revenge driven, are rewards driven, are not given to yelling, do the same stuff tomorrow you do today, etc.

It is absolutely your responsibility to protect your dog. You need to know where the dog is when you go through the fence gate. You need to know where the dog is when you open the garage door, or if the garage door is open when you go into the garage. You are the human, you reason, you are rational, you can plan ahead... The dog is in the moment.

Your first object might be to train a 'drop-dead' word, like "NO" or "DOWN" or "COME" that will stop the dog in a heartbeat and redirect its attention to you.

Contact the person injured. Be solicitous. Offer to pay any medical bills. Deal with the dog police honestly - tell them you accidentally let the dog loose. Explain you are undertaking a rigorous training effort.

And continue to post here and get better advice than I offer.

You are not the first person who's dog has injured some one. One of mine did when it was allowed to burst through the gate and get too far ahead. I've still got the dog, and it visits senior citizen residences. Good dog - bad handler.

Don't panic and think in extremes. Train yourself. Train the dog. Good luck.

keep the dog behind a proper fence and kennel him when you can't keep control of him directly. I got four and they all will bite, its what you have to do when you have aggressive dogs. Then start your training

Bill, I don't have time to go into the detail that others did, and they said it pretty well anyway. I have to be honest; my knee jerk reaction to reading your post was not full of nice thoughts. YOU are responsible. YOUR dog bit someone that for whatever reason, he deemed a threat. It is YOUR responsibility to make sure no one gets bitten that doesn't deserve to be bitten.

You are not in the right place for a ton of sympathy with regard to the "back door accidentally left open" kind of thing, unfortunately. Personally, I like dogs who bite. I have dogs who bite. Lots of us do. And every day, we do what we have to do to keep our dogs safe (yes, our DOGS- not the people around them.) It all comes down to protecting the dog by protecting those around him from being injured/attacked/whatever. You signed on for a lifelong commitment. Yes, you can cut his life short and wash your hands of it, which I think is the easy way out that too many take. Then, they console themselves with pithy cliches about how they did all they could...I call b.s. Like Al said, it happens every day.

If you are truly thinking as negatively as you come across (and please correct me if I misinterpreted your tone; that happens often on the internet), by all means, try and find an APPROPRIATE home for the dog. You have not, just by your post, shown us a dog who is deserving of euthanasia (and honestly, I think that's the wrong term if you're killing the dog so you don't have to worry about it...euthanasia is "mercy killing.")

Anyway...sit down, take a few deep breaths, acknowledge that this was 110% your fault and not his (I bet you my last dollar he thought what he was doing was just fine), and you need to work WITH him to teach him what is acceptable and what is not. My gut says he is looking for direction. Please don't fail him.

Thank you all who have offered advice so far. I will now answer some of the questions you have asked.



Max is 5 years old.

Max is the first dog I have ever had that does not even bark when someone comes to the front door. This is ironic considering the situation we are talking about.

I was aware of the incident with the previous owner but suspect that they could not afford him due to his allergies. It took 2 months of vet care to clean clean him up due to constant scratching and ear problems before I was allowed to take him home.

I spend about 10 minutes a day going through the basic commands; sit, down, stay, but in the house and in the fenced yard.

I suspect that he was jumping & nipping rather then direct aggression.

I needed to get a leash to bring him back from the other dog's property and by the time I got it he was returning to my property. It was then that the incident happened.

I have sifted through the advice all of you have provided and at this point come to the following conclusions.

First I would like to keep his beautiful animal but don't want to have an imaginary or real menace in the neighborhood.

1. Personally, I don't believe that my training the dog is the answer to this problem. It seems to me that trying to train a dog in such a high distraction level situation such as another dog or person passing by my property requires a highly specialized trainer with the help of several people to create the desired situation.

And even then it would require constant retraining with no guarantee of success if someone like me were not in the front yard to say "NO".

2. All the training in the world is not going to help if I don't happen to be there when someone else leaves a door open which realistically could happen.



2.The only realistic solution seems to be to have some sort of barrier in the front yard as I do in the back. I cannot put up any sort of fence in the front yard.

It comes down to having is a very reliable electric fence or remote collar for the front yard. It may not be the perfect answer but I suspect that a electric fence plus training on using the fence as a deterrent might be the best answer.

I would like to hear from anyone that has used an electric fence for a large dog, their opinions and what brand they found was the best.

Also, please keep sending your observations and advice.

Thanks.

All my GSDs including my "Max" laugh at E fences. Maggie, my softest who will fold up if I use too harsh a tone of voice will blow off a full stim to get at a critter. As courtesy to you nieghbors you want to have steel, wood and wire between them and 800 psi worth of meat cutting teeth.

missed the part about can't have fence in front. I don't have a fence in front. the UberBeasts stay in the back

William,
Could you give us a run down of you and your dogs average day together?
Hmmmm, perhaps even over the course of a week if it changes significantly on the weekends (or your days off).

If I'm reading all this right?
I'm sorry William but ten minutes of interaction is not enough for any dog that is anything more then a sofa cushion.