Hi all,

I recently began training my 20-month old Labrador Retriever with an e-collar to improve his off-leash reliability and begin some field training. I did a lot of research, bought a reputable e-collar, and watched the DVDs on how to condition properly. We did all of the initial conditioning steps for a couple weeks (getting him used to wearing the collar without any activations, etc.). We reviewed basic obedience again so he was used to getting some corrections with a pinch collar for not responding to commands. Then, we did Day One of conditioning - went through a bunch of training commands (heels, sits, comes) and mixed in occasional nicks with the collar for corrections. The dog's response was just a slight change of expression or move of the head, but no yelping or fearful reaction. We trained for about ten minutes total (getting in about 5 or 6 nicks) and then called it a day. So far, so good, I thought.

Day Two, I started to run through basic commands and did a nick (at the same intensity as Day One). This time, the dog laid down and started shaking. Now, anytime we start training (get his pinch collar and leash on, etc.), he just lays down and starts shaking. Whether we have the e-collar on or not, as soon as we start training, I can't even get him to heel or sit or come. He just lays down and shakes -- I physically have to lift him off the floor just to get him to stand up. He may then heel for a few steps, but then he sits and lays down again and shakes.

Anyone have this occur? Any ideas on what I should do next? Should I give him time off so he "forgets" the negative experience? Should I try and "force" the training -- correcting until he responds?

Help!

Thanks,
Stephen

If it's helpful at all, I have a TriTronics Sport Basic G3. The dog is a 20-month old chocolate lab who's been through Basic Obedience Training (on-leash) and Intermediate Obedience Training (off-leash) with a pinch collar.

ANY chance the collar could be malfunctioning?? I've no idea how possible this is, but try it on yourself very low and make sure it is not giving out a higher response than it should be. Other than that, I'm sure some of the more experienced folks will chime in.

most definatly check that collar and make sure you put it on the same way with the same tightness. I mark the collar so its not too tight or loose and the stim is consistant. check the area of the dog's neck where the prongs touch, make sure there is no irratation or injury. give it awhile and start over from the beginning

It might be worth taking the collar back to the store & exchanging it, if you've only had it for a short time or call TriTonics & see if they will check the collar for accuracy, before using it again.

Really appreciate the input, and any other ideas are welcome as well. I did try the collar on myself up to a moderate setting, and the nicks were consistent. I think TriTronics is a good brand and would really be surprised if the problem was with the e-collar, but certainly worth investigating.

I too would be surprised if the collar was malfunctioning. Stephen, this is extremely important. The collar must be very snug on the neck. If it is not the collar will give the dog stimulation sometimes and not others, which causes complete confusion in the dog.

IT IS NOT NORMAL FOR THE DOG TO RESPOND TO THE COLLAR IN THE WAY YOU DESCRIBE IN YOUR EMAIL.. I what I fear is happening is that you have trained in the compulsion method of training and the dog's true understanding of the commands is not clear. It also sounds like the stimulation level you are using is too high.

If you can say the word without the correction collar on and the dog responds without any physical directive from you, then and only then does the dog understand the command.

Therefore, my recommendation is to step back in training. I believe your dog is shutting down mentally, because he just is not sure what to do. If you force this dog, a couple of things can happen, one, he shuts down even further, reacts aggressively, or complies but is not learning thru the process.

The Tri Tronics collar jumps from one level to the next in severity too quickly for me, that's why I use the Dogtra.

I believe the dog is a soft dog and the collar level you are working on is just too much for his drive level.

SOOOOOOOO.
I would put all your collars back on.
Make sure the collar is snug.
Go play in the yard with him.
Repeat for a number of sessions, very short time periods and at least 6 different sessions.
Make sure you are playing with him on a long line so that you hold the line is not cuing him.
You need to have some tasty treats or his toys, whatever he likes the best. You will be using either of these to pull his mind back into you after you've used compulsion to get him to do a command.
PLEASE work at a very low level on the collar and nick the collar at the same time that you give direction on a flat collar.
For example, if you put him in a down, slight downward pressure on the collar with nicking collar in 1 2 3 cadence. Don't hook the leash to the pinch, just to the buckle. This will help the dog get over the mass state of confusion he is in.

I DON'T BELIEVE IT IS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE DOG NOR YOUR RELATIONSHIP to train using compulsion, or what some people call correction based training. The above advice is based on your description of your training method and how correction based trainers use the e-collar.
If......you want a better relationship and a more reliable dog I would purchase Michael Ellis' Marker Training Videos, Using Food and Using the Tug. It will open a new world to you.
I train differently with my clients and the ecollar, pairing marker training with the collar. It creates outstanding results, but I tried to answer your question the way you asked.
I hope this helps.
Roni

 Quote: Roni Hoff

IT IS NOT NORMAL FOR THE DOG TO RESPOND TO THE COLLAR IN THE WAY YOU DESCRIBE IN YOUR EMAIL.. I what I fear is happening is that you have trained in the compulsion method of training and the dog's true understanding of the commands is not clear. It also sounds like the stimulation level you are using is too high.

If you can say the word without the correction collar on and the dog responds without any physical directive from you, then and only then does the dog understand the command.

I am wondering about this too. Stephen, are you giving only commands that the dog fully understands, has been proofed on, etc., etc.?

(The stim being too high is huge, of course, but for me, a dog who is lying down and trembling tells me to stop everything I am doing and back up to 100% positive, zero-correction work.)

JMO. Just another pair of eyes. I am in no way an e-collar pro. I would want to do nothing but fun and more fun for a while with this dog now. Please post back.

After more consideration, I would like to offer some additional comments: I think also asking the dog to come to you, you backing away from the dog, gently pulsing the buckle collar and nic the collar (remember very low level, just enough for an eye blink or slight turn of head,probably on 1 med on TriTronics)in a tap tap tap, pause tap tap tap, pause, tap tap tap,As soon as the dog shifts his weight forward, doesn't even have to take a step, say yes and give treat or play ball, something so the dog thinks he is right.
Please let me know how it goes, Again, please play with him first, for at least 6 sessions.
Roni

Thanks for everyone's input. I've been taking it very slow and will let you know how it goes.