My dilemma is how do I know when the puppy is telling me that he wants to get out and potty by scratching on the door? Or when he is just scratching the door because he wants to get out and play?

I've had two potty accidents already in 2 weeks. Cleaning poop and pee in the morning is not something that I'd like to do often.

I have a 5 month schnauzer. I've had the pup for over 2 weeks now. I placed it in a crate when I'm not around to supervise it. I take the pup out 2-3x/day for potty break: morning, noon (if I can make it home for lunch), and evening. I feed the pup in the morning and in the evening.

I watched Ed Frawley's video on Pack Structure and 8-8month. Pack Structure said to keep him crated until he is calm & submissive. In another video he said that if the dog is scratching and making a fuss in the crate, I should wait until it calms down before letting him out.

I hope you guys can provide some advice and clarify.

Thanks!

If it were me, I'd say the pup doesn't trust me enough to let it out in time. To fix it I'd find someone to come during the day to let the pup out. I might also have them give him a small meal. I think pups need 3 - 4 meals. I'd make the last meal of the day around 6 pm and no water after 6:30 pm. I wouldn't yell or punish the pup for his (really my) mistakes. I'd make a strict schedule and stick to it. I'd also keep the pup tethered to me when he's not in the crate. I'd use a specific slip leash to go out to pee/poop and have treats with me to reward the action.

As for the scratching the crate door, I'd ignore it as long as I'm sticking to the schedule. I'd also make sure the crate is not too big to allow the pup to pee/poop in the back and sleep in the front. I might, for a few nights, let the dog out once during the night. Just to gain some trust. At 5 months he should be able to hold through the night, I think.

This is what I plan to do with my pup in a few weeks, but I will be home all day and my pup will be younger.

Hi Sherwin,

The pup is five months old and you've had him for two weeks... What was the previous situation like? Was he crate trained before you got him?

Both videos you've watched are advising the same thing - to never take a dog out of a crate while it is is whining or scratching; this only teaches them they need to whine or scratch to come out.

It is very important that the dog is taken out enough times so as to prevent the need to soil the crate, and if that means getting up once in the middle of the night to give him the opportunity to do so, then that is what needs to be done. It is not fun, but it is not forever, just until he is housebroken.

Other than taking the pup out 2 or 3 times a day for a potty break, what is his schedule like?

Are we understanding correctly that your 5 month old pup stays in a crate all day, from after breakfast to when you get home in the evening? That is a long time not only to hold it, but to be alone. I would also ask if that dog was crate trained when you got it.

I got him from the breeder two weeks ago. He lived in a kennel, where there were people to take care of him for the whole day. It was not crate trained until I had him.

7am. Potty break.
730am. Crate for food.
12pm. Potty break (if I get home for lunch)
6pm. Potty break.
630pm. Crate for food.
9pm. Potty break.
930pm. Crate.

Ever since I placed him in the crate, the pup didn't whine or scream. Whenever I pass by the crate, he's bump his nose on the crate door or scratch the door a bit, but he settles down in a few minutes.

What I did before was wait until he stops scratching and lays down before opening the door, leash him and take him out for potty break.

The two times that he had his peeing accident in his crate was when I was at the crate door waiting for him to calm down before taking him out. He didn't stop scratching at the door and just peed right there.

Should I just let him out when he's scratching incessantly? Or is my scheduling for potty break the issue?

Your guy needs to "go" much more than 4x-5x a day. More like 12x a day.
My pup is about 8 mos old now, we live on a farm, so he's outside a bunch -- I bet he pees 15x a day and poops 4-5x.
I'd find somebody to walk him, schools almost out most places.
If you take him out of the crate many more times he will be a lot less frantic to get out, so there will be less whining and pawing. My guy gets so much exercise sometimes I have to pull him out of the crate these days.

 Quote: sherwin lim

I got him from the breeder two weeks ago. He lived in a kennel, where there were people to take care of him for the whole day. It was not crate trained until I had him.

7am. Potty break.
730am. Crate for food.
12pm. Potty break (if I get home for lunch)
6pm. Potty break.
630pm. Crate for food.
9pm. Potty break.
930pm. Crate.

Ever since I placed him in the crate, the pup didn't whine or scream. Whenever I pass by the crate, he's bump his nose on the crate door or scratch the door a bit, but he settles down in a few minutes.

What I did before was wait until he stops scratching and lays down before opening the door, leash him and take him out for potty break.

The two times that he had his peeing accident in his crate was when I was at the crate door waiting for him to calm down before taking him out. He didn't stop scratching at the door and just peed right there.

Should I just let him out when he's scratching incessantly? Or is my scheduling for potty break the issue?

I have never had a dog which was a kennel dog prior to owning him, but I have heard that they can be a bit more difficult to train because they have become accoustomed to relieving themselves in the larger kennel. This doesn't mean you can not change the behavior, however.

If I'm reading your schedule correctly, the dog comes out in the morning to potty, then goes in the crate to eat and you go to work.

Some days you make it home at lunch, other days you don't.

You get home in the evening and let the dog out to potty, then crate him for dinner.

You take him out to potty for the evening and then put him to bed for the night.

Is this correct?

If this is correct - your schedule is not only the potty training issue but a huge problem overall, imo. ANY dog needs a lot more involvement, training and exercising to be well adjusted and content and to become part of your family. Right now it sounds as if you are feeding the dog two times a day, letting him pee/poo three times a day if he is lucky and then he is in a crate.

This is absolutely not good for the dog! Are you open to making changed to this dog's routine?

I am also a dog owner who works full time. I just got a pup 6 weeks ago, but here is what I did.

I live about 20 minutes out of town, so I asked a friend if I could keep her there during the days. (We traded off some kenneling time at my house for one of her dogs in June) She is crated there though. I go there at lunch and pick up my pup and take her to one of the various parks throughout the city for play time and to socialize her to the many sounds, people and dogs. (I do NOT allow people to pet her and I do NOT allow her to play with any dogs. The park is a people first park so dogs must be leashed-I keep mine on a long line)On other days, I bring her to work and keep her in my truck, crated. Same lunch schedule although sometimes we visit the feed store and pet stores for some very light distraction work. (I'm not sure if your climate would allow this)

So here is what my schedule looks like:

5:45-6:00am :Wake up, take pup outside. She usually pees first. We play 2 ball for about 35 minutes straight. She is only 14 weeks and has totally mastered this game-she loves it to boot! Then we do a 15-20 minute walk around our property or to the end of our road for her to go #2 and just to give her some time to be a puppy.

7am-breakfast in her crate (she is raw fed and likes to make piles out of her food before she eats it-who knows why...)

7:35 am- out for a potty break and into the truck

8:00 am- another potty break; she usually won't go, but I give her the opportunity just in case.

8:10 am- in the truck or into my friends house

12:00pm- Pick up for lunch, potty break
We go to the parks and do small OBD session, play 2 ball, explore trails, or visit businesses where dogs are allowed and do VERY light OBD (like Sit with a focus).

12:55pm- Back in the crate and I go back to work.

4:45pm- Potty break

5:00pm- arrive home. While we still had snow we would walk for about 30 minutes along the trails or down the road. Then we would do some OBD with special treats and I was starting to teach her 2 ball, then we would do some drive building/tugging.
Then we would do OBD with using about a quarter of her meal to do another short OBD session. Now that the snow is gone, I come home and do yard work (Yay!) so she follows me around and has free run for about 2 hours after we get home, so everything gets pushed back about 30 minutes. We also train in group settings two- 3 times a week with our dog club. Yesterday we trained for 3 hours (the other dogs too) then did yard work for 3 hours, so she was pretty pooped for the afternoon. We still do play before bed though.

7pm- Potty break

7-9pm in house relax time/chew time/learning to be quiet inside with some marker training time

9:00-in crate for fifteen (while I get ready for bed)

9:15-9:30 outside for another short walk and maybe a few ball throws

I find this schedule works for me and my dogs (They all participate in the morning and after work exercise sessions just seperately in the morning so I can get the pup to focus on me) If anyone has any critiques of my schedule. Maybe something I can do better, I would love to hear it.

@barbara. i'm open to anything actually. i was just following what i learned in Pack Structure video. maybe i'm approaching this in the wrong way. in the PS video, i had the impression that pup is crated 24/7 and no play until it's calm & submissive. pup gets out only for potty break then back into the crate. food must be given in the crate after the family finish eating. sound very militaristic, noh?

 Quote: sherwin lim

@barbara. i'm open to anything actually. i was just following what i learned in Pack Structure video. maybe i'm approaching this in the wrong way. in the PS video, i had the impression that pup is crated 24/7 and no play until it's calm & submissive. pup gets out only for potty break then back into the crate. food must be given in the crate after the family finish eating. sound very militaristic, noh?

The PS video/process does not allow any time for mental or physical exercise? Just a brief break for going to the bathroom and then back in the crate 24/7? (I'm going to have to watch it again). I'm honestly not sure how a five month old pup can be calm when it is not getting ANY time to be a pup and expend some energy since mental and physical exercise is so necessary for the dog to be ABLE to be calm...

The eating after the family may sound militaristic but really just sets you up as "higher in rank" than your dog. In their mind it makes perfect sense, even if it seems a bit "rude" in the human world.