Sorry, but i have been dying to ask you guys questions about horses but didn't know if I was allowed. lol
I saw another post and well....
Anyway, somehow or 'nuther, I got rooked into adopting a pack (herd?) of puny horses. Two are colts under a year old and beyond skinney, one is an injured almost 2 yo filly and the other of a scrawny (ill-tempered) mare that I'm praying isn't preggers. *sigh*
I have had horses in the past, but never like this. I have tried free feeding coastal hay with 14% grain meals to the colts. They have been wormed 3 times and are still loosing weight. I am going to separate them from the girls as soon as I get a day off work (hopefully in this lifetime) because I think the ladies are running the colts too much.
Question: can I add something like Calf Manna to the boys' feed to help boost them along a bit? Any other suggestions?
We are doing GW with them, handle feet, catch and tie, grooming, etc from both sides. I am hoping that if and when they ever grow, they will be fairly bombproof someday.
The girls are a whole other post I guess, mostly about how to get some manners on them without getting killed. The mare is quite the kicker. Scary, I've never had a horse with such a nasty temper around feed. She will allow you to catch her and pet her when there's no feed around, though. She WILL attempt to tag you with both barrels (I mean, legs) if there's even one kernal of feed close by. BTW, she's skinny, too, with an ever expanding belly. *groan*
Thank you guys so very very much!!!

Oils/fats are great for adding calories and weight to horses. You can use regular corn/vegetable oil from the grocery store. Just pour it on the feed.

When you feed the hay put out at least one more pile of hay than there are horses, that way no one can hog the whole thing.

Is there a possibility that the colts have sand colic? I think psyllium husks is the remedy for that.

As far as the ill tempered mare...the most impacting horse information I ever got was a book by (and later a clinic with) Dan Sumeral. He also has training DVDs available. The book is called "Finding The Magic." He teaches you how to safely and easily be the alpha. The horses respect your space and you stay safe. It is so easy that my daughter has been doing it with my horses since she was two. It is the first thing that I teach my lesson kids.

I haven't been kicked, stepped on, run over, or bit by any horse, mine or anyone else's, since I started using Dan's methods 10 years ago. I have been lightly bumped a few times, but that's it. My horses all like and respect me and come up to greet me when I go to the pasture. I also don't ever allow any fighting/nasty looks between herd members when I am with them.

When you have "the attitude" new horses recognise it and most will respect you without testing.

When you feed the horses keep the grain/hay in your possession. When they approach make sure their heads are neutral/not high and they are not pinning ears or presenting butts, if they do send them away with a wave of your arms or wave a crinkly plastic bag (cut out the end so you don't get a balloon) taped on the end of a dressage whip. When they can approach nicely they must touch your hand with their nose. DO NOT move your hand to touch them, you are alpha so they have to touch you first. Then you touch them on the face (they are submitting to you when they allow it). When they have touched you and been touched back then give them the food. And watch that the B!^ch mare doesn't turn on you when you put the grain down and turn to leave.

The plastic bag on the stick is wonderful for aggressive horses because you can keep it still on the ground behind you when you don't need it then you can bring it around and up high (it makes you look really tall to the horse) to assert your alpha position. Most horses find waving crinkly plastic bags unnerving. Only move it as much as you need to to get the response you want.

Rule #1 Only back up if you think you are about to die, otherwise employ the arm or bag wave to move the horse out of your space. Alpha does not move for the lesser horses.

Rule #2 DO NOT hit the horse (get physical) because they make take you up on it and you will not win.

Several years ago I watched a friend of mine whack a very rude pushy horse with the end of a lead rope one time on his blanketed neck. He bite her on the upper back. She went back at him with the lead rope, when she turned away he charged her and bit her on the top of the shoulder and knocked her to the ground. Fortunately he stopped attacking her, and she didn't happen to get her neck/jugular bitten. She is still alive.

Thank you!
I will put my crinkly bag warning stick together before I go out to attempt to feed again.
I usually don't have issues with the Alpha status (not with my dogs, or most everyone's dogs for some reason), Skipper may be getting the idea, too. I have not beaten her or anything of that sort, but when she started to threaten me, I did my 'bow up' imitation. I stood as tall as I could and glared at her. She later approached me quietly and allowed me to pet her. I was just startled the first time I ever fed her and saw the undersides of both her back hooves. She tried that 3 times. I was so very not comfortable with that. lol
As of right now, my kids are not allowed in the pasture until I get a grip on Miss Pushy Pants. I do hate the whole 'I can't back down now, but I'm not sure I'm ready to die yet' feeling.

How much oil should I add to the boys' feed. Will too much work as a laxative?
Thank you again for you repply. Great info.
I'm off to go shopping for a new book. I love new books!

Edited by Lisa skinner (07/05/2010 02:26 AM)
Edit reason: I never won a spelling bee, now I know why

The boys should be separated asap and gelded. I knew of a group of early yearling colts and fillies turned out together and a filly ended up bred.

Have you done a panacur treatment on them? It's been a really long time but seems like it's 5 or 7 days in a row. That or a double dose of ivermectin. Strongic C is pricey but works really nicely, especially on hard keepers. Oil, as said before, works great too. Start with half a cup and add a half a cup every few days to your target dose. I had one mare that was in such a bad way, her grain ways basically entirely covered and almost soupy with oil. She came back nicely. Not all horses handle it well and will get runny poop so adjust accordingly.

Lots and lots of good grass hay, as much as they will eat. The mare would likely do better on a low protien grain, 10-12% with high fat (or top dress). If you want to keep it simple, get the 10-12% grain and topdress calf manna for the colts.
Another thing that works REALLY well is Fastrack probiotics. Not probios or other brand...Fastrack. I don't know why but I've seen it for myself. When they get Fastrack, they use their feed better (no whole grains in the poop), it really is great stuff.

As far as the attitude, can't help with that because I have no patience for that crap and I'd give you bad advice ;-)

Hi, thank you for the replies.
I tried the crinkly bag stick trick. I endend up not really needing it. I no sooner walked out there with it, Skip looked at me funny and I kind of stood taller and 'hard-stared' at her and she was docile as a lamb. I got the boys in a separate area to eat their grain and made the girls eat outside. Not even an ear pinning by anyone. Attitude does work lol. It didn't hurt that I had my daughter standing by with the phone, just in case we needed a 911 call. I was picturing all sorts of closed head injuries, etc. I really need to find a job somewhere other than the ER. Sure makes you picture the worst. I may have overdone the oil a bit, Baby Jude has a touch of diarrhea, so I will back it off a bit.
Oh, Debbie, I found Dan Sumeral's web site, awesome stuff! Thanks! I'm ordering the book you suggested. I really appreciate that. Thanks for the help guys, I was so miserable about them all, but I am thinking that maybe there's a chance I can make it work. Or, I may have found a job for one of my dogs - holding the horses back. I wonder how to teach them that?

Awesome! You can carry a bag in your pocket, ready to grab and wave, so that you have your "attitude" with you.

I'm glad the mare was so easy to convince. She may still test you later.

Dan is pretty amazing in person. He's a short, middle aged Italian who does not look like a horse person at all (he's an ex motorcycle racer/parts house owner). He has the rude/out of control clinic horses fawning over him in no time.

I figure she will test me. I am thinking because she is soooo big that she has intimidated quite a lot of folks in the past and tried that with me. I must have made quite a sight, little ol' me trying to do battle with a huge QH mare. lol
Don't mess with us little fiesty ones.
I was hoping maybe I could try some marker training, sugar cubes and praise for just being mellow, maybe. I want to start working a relationship right away and not let bad habits become even more engraved while I wait on the book and study it. I am going to try being completely non-confrontational without backing down from a threat. Does that sound like an almost safe starting place?
I think I felt a little more confident since I had someone there to call for help in a crisis. Maybe that showed. I am going to keep doing that. seems the wise thing to do.
Thanks again for the help. I love this place and all you wonderful people here.

It is safest to start the battle with small, seemingly insignificant, encounters. You stand there and wait for the horse to get into your bubble (your bubble can be as small or large as you want it to be). Wave your hand or bag to move them away. You step into the horse's space and ask them to move a step away. Don't start the alpha process near the butt, they may kick when you startle them.

Also, if you can make the horse move without you moving your feet your status is elevated.

The end result of this work is that the horse will spook around you, they never "accidentally" bump you with their head or foot. If you are under the horse for any reason they will do their best not to touch you. If you move they will move out of your way. They will also stand and submit when you touch them. If my horses have a horse fly biting them on the side I'm standing on they will take a step to the side before they swing their head around at the fly. They never kick at a fly on the side where I'm standing.

When I demonstrate this with my lesson horse I will walk into his shoulder or butt and he will step out of my way, I also back into his space with the same results. When I stop he stops. But when I reach out and touch him he stands for me and doesn't move away. I can crawl under his belly (he's short), push up with my back so that his belly does the water balloon thing, then crawl out, and he just stands there.

Debbie, you have obviously spent tons of time on ground work with your horses. One of the most important aspects of horse ownership & one that many people seem to skip or put little emphisis on. One that I always felt was more important then riding my horse until it was well in place & just like working with dogs needs to be maintained.

It really doesn't seem like I do much ground work. I just always have my alpha attitude on when I'm around them, so they respect me. I've been doing it long enough that it's automatic. Today, for instance, I went to the pasture, the horses saw me and came over. We did our touch the hand greetings and then I scratched their shoulders and tails, pulled ticks, and hung out with them for about half an hour while I checked on the cows. No sweat, halters, or ropes involved.