Hi all,
Sorry this is looong - I'm looking for some advice from those who have worked with nervous/fearful rescues, and especially anyone who's worked with rescued gun dogs.

I have close friends who adopted a roughly 4-5 year old English Setter last December. He's a really handsome guy, about 50lbs, and he was found running the woods somewhere in the south. He was in a foster home for around 6 months before he was adopted (somewhere in there he was transported up here to the Northeast), though I don't know what type of home it was, ie other dogs, kids, etc.

Friends started out with some version of groundwork - crating when not at home, tethering a lot when they were home with him. He was exceptionally skittish/nervous around everyone, and when approached his first reaction was to back/run away. I took him for a walk one afternoon while they were away and, granted, he'd only met me maybe once before, it took me a good 15 minutes to finally get his collar and leash on - after I let him out of his crate, he simply wouldn't let me get close (I sat on the floor for a long time, coaxing, had yummy food, etc - no dice). I finally inched close enough that he backed himself into a corner and just melted onto his back, paw raised over his face... Once I did get him out for the walk, he was totally fine, VERY distracted while outside, we did a little jog around town then back home, where he let me wipe him down with a towel because it was raining out (he looked bummed out about it, but he stood still while I did this).

Fast forward a few months - he definitely got more confident, bonded well with his new people (the two who adopted him), and was taken out for good exposure to new places and people. They determined that he's completely aloof with other dogs, couldn't care less about them. The only thing that even begins to turn this dog on is doing what he was bred to do - watch, stalk & chase BIRDS (he's a natural). Owners stopped crating him during the day while they were at work and he's perfectly fine in the house, no accidents or destructive behavior. However, while he seemed to be getting less skittish (run away scared) with guests, he started growling if he felt encroached upon - like if people would walk too closely to where he was laying on the floor, or if they'd pet him. Owners verbally corrected for this, but for him, the growling worked, because it made whoever was doing whatever stop.

Fast forward again to this month. Owner brought dog to a gathering at another friend's house. There were 2 other very chill dogs in the home and all dogs completely minded their own business. Setter was actually tethered to owner all night, no problems, but towards the end of evening, I sat on the floor next to the dog and gave him a little pet on the back and he growled (my bad). Thus ensued a long conversation about how to deal with this, and unfortunately, it ended with the owner of the other 2 dogs (who has a pretty no nonsense attitude with canines) essentially pressuring the Setter into snapping at her - dog was seated next to his standing owner (on leash) the whole time, she just got in his face with her hands - he growled the whole time and looked extremely uncomfortable, and after he snapped he immediately got up and moved behind his owner with a submissive slink. Admittedly, this was a TERRIBLE situation, potentially dangerous, and completely unnecessary/counterproductive... I feel bad about not stepping in... trust me when I say it was an uncomfortable situation all around. Also of note, apparently this 3rd person actually alpha rolled the poor setter earlier in the week, for growling. Again, SO inappropriate, on so many levels, but my friend is really figuring all this out for the first time, and she just didn't know enough to tell her friend to back off.

I saw the dog just a few weeks after this incident and witnessed it snap at a guest after only being pet once on the back in passing - it appears that the behavior is escalating, and my friend needs some GOOD advice about how to work through this. I have no experience with a dog like this...

This is a really nice dog, and the way I'm interpreting things is thus: he's a nervous breed with possibly poor (unknown) history that is causing him to be EXTRA nervous around people. As he's gotten more comfortable in his new home, what started as submissive cowering when pressured has developed into growling, and now snapping as a means to make uncomfortable situations stop. He may feel like his owners just aren't protecting him (between the alpha rolling and the pressure from this other friend), but I can only think proper biting will be the next progression... this dog is also exceedingly soft and a physical correction easily puts him on his back. He has minimal food drive, which becomes nil when he's stressed. Making matters perhaps more difficult is that his new home is very socially active with frequent guests, gatherings and new people over.

My suggestions to friend have been primarily of the "preventative" sort - the dog shouldn't be roaming loose during periods when there are guests over (if there are a lot of guests, separation to crate/another room would be appropriate), any guests to the home should be instructed to completely ignore the dog, and dog should be worked in positive obedience to give him focus - and, the dog should NEVER be corrected by a guest. Corrections from owners should be for not following commands, not for growling when the dog is uncomfortable - the later should be managed primarily by trying to prevent "uncomfortable" situations (including desensitizing and socialization to certain stimuli). It seems like this is one of those dogs who just prefers not to be loved on, and his owners should respect that by setting him up so he doesn't have to deal with close encounters - that said, he shouldn't end up so reactive that someone could be snapped at for brushing past him in a doorway...

Can anyone A. tell me if I'm off the mark, and B. offer other suggestions? In the event of another "snap" - what is appropriate protocol (in relation to this particular dog)?

Many thanks - for anyone patient enough to read this - and any help!

~Natalya

 Quote: Natalya Zahn

He may feel like his owners just aren't protecting him (between the alpha rolling and the pressure from this other friend), but I can only think proper biting will be the next progression...

~Natalya

Well, let me start by saying I've never rescued a dog nor do I work with gun dogs so this might be completely useless...

Aside from that, the dog might feel that his owners aren't protecing him because they aren't, are they? I think all of your suggestions/ideas ARE on the mark, and that poor dog needs to be given the extra space he is asking for before someone DOES get bitten.

Is he getting any regular opportunity to do what DOES turn him on? Hunt or chase birds?

It sounds like a good thing you know these folks and are involved in the dog's life.

Well, that was certainly a crappy situation to be put in (you, and of course, the poor dog).

I think your suggestions are good ones; management is the key, I think. Can you work with the owners re assertiveness in protecting their dog from unwanted attention? I think sometimes people just have to be told that it's OK to tell people that they can't pet the dog. Tethering is a great idea, too. Owner always close enough to intercept someone looming over the dog...

Re the growls when someone walks past, I wonder if that could be addressed with marker training in a set up situation as distraction proofing? Maybe you could help with that?

English setters were our family dogs, I never ever knew a biter or a nervy dog, but I suppose they are just big cockers in a way, and some cockers are the worlds worst fear biters--so it must be in the gene pool. Does he look like a show setter (big square head, heavy flews, lots of feathers) or the lighter field type?

I am no trainer but thought maybe he could learn some field things, like the feather on the end of the fishing line for him to hunt and point. Maybe if he could become good at something the confidence would carry over to him tolerating social situations with people.
Sounds like it's going to be a hard one to fix.

 Quote: Lynne Barrows

I think sometimes people just have to be told that it's OK to tell people that they can't pet the dog. Tethering is a great idea, too. Owner always close enough to intercept someone lo

Yes! It was hard enough to learn this with my own dog - some people just don't consider (and some don't even accept) this as an option. The evening of the uncomfortable gathering, this very difference of ideology was the center of the conflict - the 3rd party refused to believe that any dog should be allowed to not be A-OK with people interacting with it under any and every circumstance (she even included the dreaded 'babies should be able to pull on their ears and poke them in the ribs' claim...)

Thankfully, the Setter's owner, after reading through many articles on this site, was on the dog's side and was starting to realize that it WAS perfectly okay to deny people access to him... the only catch with this realization though is that once the owner gets it, they take on a lot of responsibility for heading off tricky situations (in my experience, you just become ultra conservative with your management, which is not always the most convenient option - but worth it!).

~Natalya

I would get this person on here and reading the articles that Ed has.
Have a heart to heart with them about the situation..have them read your post.
Then start educating them with Ed's materials.
I sure wouldn't have let anyone touch my dog...no need at this stage....or ever for that matter.
Hugs
Willie

 Quote: willie tilton

I would get this person on here and reading the articles that Ed has.
Have a heart to heart with them about the situation..have them read your post.
Then start educating them with Ed's materials.
I sure wouldn't have let anyone touch my dog...no need at this stage....or ever for that matter.

Thanks Willie - I pointed her here straight away (she's also started a RAW diet thanks to all the guidance here ) - I think she's totally on board, just not a member, so I'm posting on her behalf (will work on getting her signed up!). The "MY dog, I get to decide who touches it" attitude is definitely sinking in... I sympathize though, this is a tough learning curve for someone without a lot of experience who was just hoping to adopt a nice, easy-going adult dog...

~Natalya

Yes mame there are! I'll try to find one closer to you, but here is some information.

http://www.ronniesmithkennels.com/seminars.htm

Here is one in N.H.
http://www.greysoutfitting.com/dogtraining.htm

They could maybe work on teaching him to stand behind their legs on cue, makes it easier to block incoming attention.

It feels weird to do at first, but there is something really liberating about telling someone no when they want to touch your dog!!

There are also those "working dog do not pet vests" that can help back up the point.