third attempt at posting this, hi all this is my first post, just tried posting previously but not sure where it ended up, oh well

here is the short version. after not owning a dog for over twenty years i have just purchased a dutch shepherd to pick up in 8 weeks.

i bought a pup 13 months ago, not a registered breed but bred to hunt. she is a great tracker but for practical and safety reasons has been bred with no civil or dog aggresion, not smart attributes in a pack hunting scenario. i will not be using her for this type of work/training.

during this past year i have become fascinated in bite sports that frankly didn't exist at least around these parts 20 years ago.

i am about 200km from a pro-trainer so am relying on Ed's training tapes and this board for practical advice.

the dog i am getting was bred by pro security guards to supply their own needs and they haven't sold to the general public before, they have offered free training when the dog gets older as i think they are concerned knowing how hard and dominant the line is.

i don't personally believe in using a dog for personal protection as i don't live a lfestyle that requires it and if i had a problem i would sort it out myself not rely on a dog to do it for me.

i am only interested in the sports aspect. i have read the threads re owning two dogs both in training and have seen Ed's advice on the tapes, all clearly indicate i am making a big mistake getting a second dog.

my question is; are there no circumstances that the two dogs (male & female) should be allowed to run freely together and just be dogs even if only for 1 hour per day.

are there any other clear "do's & dont's" i should be concrned about in the first few months.

i already have the working puppy DVD, the basic obedience DVD, 8 weeks to 8 months DVD etc. they all have the same answer. the dogs must be kept seperate at all times, which seems harsh but experienced people are saying it so i may have no choice - comments/advice will be appreciatted.

second unrelated question, hope it is not too dumb is; if mastiff breeds have been bred for thousands of years specifically to protect man then why are they seldom if ever seen doing protection work in either sports, millitary or police work?? thanks for any advice and apolgies for length of post.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (07/19/2010 02:31 PM)
Edit reason: paragraph breaks

Welcome Peter!

Paragraphs are your friend.

As I don't own multiple dogs, I'll leave that to others (tho there are quite a few threads here about it, and you can try the search function).

As far as Mastiffs and protection sports, you're being confused by the word "protection." The protection sports were developed with dogs like the GSD and Mal and DS in mind, all of which are herding breeds and work in a similar fashion.

I'm not even sure which group Mastiffs are from, but their version of protection would be totally different.

leih

Welcome to the forum Peter. (Long blocks of text with no breaks are kinda hard to read... )

Most folks who raise a working line dog they are training for the bite sports would tell you to keep the two separate. The more they play together, the stronger the bond between them and the less with you. Ideally, the working line pup's energy and drive will be used in training with you, not expended on playing with another dog. (If she/he is tired and satisfied from a romp with the other dog, there will be less desire to work / focus with you.)

If you are going to be relying on Ed's videos to help raise this pup, and the ones you have are all saying the same thing in regard to how to raise the pup... why the hesitation to follow that advice?

Again, welcome!

Also pleeeeaaassseeee research the heck out of dutchies. Very tough breed to start with as your beginning dog I'd seriously reconsider. But that's just my opinion. I've just seen to many dutchies put down because they're too much dog for a beginner.

Yikes Peter!
You sure you know what you're doing?
You sure you have enough time for handling and training two very different dogs in two very different disciplines.

Have you ever handled a dog with anywhere near the energy and drive of a Dutchie? Presuming of course the dog you're getting is to the standard Dutchie issue, have you ever?

Everyone needs to start somewhere I suppose.
You're not going to have the luxury of being shy.
We'll be here when you need us Peter.

There's a few reasons having to do with drives, size and temperament dogs like the Mastiff's aren't used in the areas you mentioned.
However, if you look hard enough you'll find a few people that play with some of the dogs from the Mossler family in the sports venue.

Welcome to the board Peter.

thank you all for replies, sorry about the format. i tend to write it like i think it - chunks of sporadic loosely connected thought in bursts - i will try straighten it out some.

i have definately been told that this is a huge challenge but am going to go for it, i am still fit, reasonably smart, have an adequate income, a bit time poor like everyone else but prepared to make the lifestyle changes. might not make it to the sports arena but that is secondary, i am determined to do right by my dogs that i am making a 10+ year financial/training/health & well being etc commitment to and don't plan to screw up.


should not have questioined Ed video advice, i thought there might be a middle road where a dog can work and still live a "dogs life" occasionally, i am a bit soft that way.

yes the dutchie is pure & papered, imported line from dutch police stock - i will never say i wasn't warned about their drives/temperament and look like i am going to get what i asked for. the security boys that bred them think i can do it (or they wouldn't let me loose with one)but have made me agree to come back for free help, they are keeping pups from the same litter so they will be up on their development and have plans in place for training steps. they are not commercial breeders so have no profit motive to sell dogs/training/equipment etc.

as prep i have nearly finished a very solid outdoor kennel to separate the dogs during the day when at work, i will keep the pup inside though untill he gets over the seperation from litter and am reading/viewing everything i can find.

if any old hands preferably familiar with the breed want to be off-list mentors i am up for adoption, not sure how much i am allowed to clog this list with posts. have even considered entering a commercial (paid) arrangement with some of the admin team here, is that OK to ask them about that and how much would i expect to pay them - i like the attitudes of some from articles they posted here.

as for the mastiff question i meant conventional protection where a dog is sent to attack and incapacitate someone trying to assualt you, not the sport dog trying to get points in a learned structured scenario. it was just a curiosity question.

anyway thanks for the comments, i was expecting the litter to be born already but haven't heard anything. i feel so much better and less isolated having joined this board.

Welcome to the board...and thanks for the paragraph breaks in the second post....I didn't even read the first one...I know Will won't either...(you want Will to read your stuff....)

Two thoughts...One to get any high drive pup to adulthood,and do it right...(especially a duchie) you will need to devote At least 4 hours of training/exercise time a day..and if its going to be a house dog, not a kennel dog, and another 3 hours to hanging out with it tethered to your belt.

You might get away when its an adult with less time, but with a pup, that's what it takes.
When It's young it will be really hard, because you will ruin its bones if you take it out and run it for an hour twice a day.
This board is full if threads about people who have puppies that are out of control and biting them and so on...its because they don't exercise the dogs enough.

You have to break the 2 hours of exercise into 4-6 sessions to get it done....then after they are exercised and rested you need to put in 1 hour of sport directed training..they cant learn this if they are too jazzed up because they haven't had their exercise. Oh you will need to break that into several short sessions for a pup.

Then you need to have the pup tethered to your belt for another 3-4 hours to teach it in house manners...you will be doing obsticals outside..jump on this table, over this A frame...then inside.. Dog says...."Oh..you DON'T want me on the dinning room table or counter???!!??? I don't understand??!!!!?"

Mals, Dutchies, and several other lines/types need even more time than the regular high drive sport breeds.
What you are suggesting doing is like learning to fly a plane in a Leer Jet...or better yet the space shuttle.
Or learning to drive for the first time in a Lamborghini......

Listen to Will Rambeau...if he posts on here...Listen to Dennis, Listen to Steve and Aaron, Rob and the others that have sport dogs or PPD that they have trained and are working now.....they know what they are talking about....Possibly ask the question ...."what breed/blood line would you recommend a beginner get to start training for sport?"

That is assuming that you have the 6+ hours a day that it takes to train any dog with high enough drives to the job.


To train a mastiff breed to do personal protection work is almost more work than a dog with high drive...without drive you can't train a dog to do PPD work.....so you have to create drive...that takes lots of time and work.

You can't start with defense, which other than food drive is mostly what the mastiff breeds have...its lots and lots of work...sort of like pushing rope up hill.
Add another 5 hours a day to train the mastiff.

I'm going to say something that I really hope doesn't scare you off...I like your attitude, and I reallllly hope you stay around and become a regular posting member...

but this statement shows that you don't have the first idea of what it takes and what you are talking about.

 Quote:

as for the mastiff question i meant conventional protection where a dog is sent to attack and incapacitate someone trying to assualt you, not the sport dog trying to get points in a learned structured scenario. it was just a curiosity question.

The training is really similar..the PPD needs high drives also and massive structured training..almost more so..if a sport dog screws up you loose a title..if a PPD screws up someone can get really hurt or die.

Again, I'm not trying to flame you or drive you off....but I hope you see that starting with a Dutchie isn't a good idea.
I hope I was right about you and that you are man enough to hear this without getting your feathers in a fluff....
I don't usually post long like this for newbies..so often they run off and never come back when they hear what they don't want to...

They can always find some shyster to pay to tell them what they want....
Here you have lots of top trainers giving their advice away for free...saying the same thing....I'd listen.

I'll PM Will and see if he will come over.....and as always Go with what he says over me...he is the pro.....

I have to agree with others here... I believe that you may be getting in way over your head. You need to walk before your can run. Wanting to do this & having the knowledge & skill to do so is 2 very differdent things. A dutch or mal (good WLs)is not for beginners in the sport or PPD venue. There are woking lines of GSDs that aren't either.

What are your thoughts about the first time the dog comes up the line at you? Many very high drive dogs are not very forgiving of handler errors. How do you handle this without destroying your relationship with your dog?

Just some food for thought.

 Quote:

What are your thoughts about the first time the dog comes up the line at you? Many very high drive dogs are not very forgiving of handler errors. How do you handle this without destroying your relationship with your dog?

Good point.

For those who don't know..coming up the line is when the dog redirects its focus to its own handler and bites the handler....line being leash.

There you have it Peter,
You wanted more then one or two opinions.

If what you're looking to get....and do get is the real deal, because of your experience level the bargin your making is a losing proposition.

Dutchies are not Mals dressed in different cloth. Don't get lost thinking that's the big difference between them, it's not.
For a Dutchie to come back up the leash or make a try at the handler, I think would be par for the course, and not an isolated event at all.
(I'll stand and take my lumps on that point if I'm wrong)

I'll iterate, you should rethink this whole idea.
But if your bound and determined to pursue it, check your pm's.

Randy