I own a neut, 6yo Aussie. He did go thru to advanced obedience prior to starting to have violent seizures at 4yo and being put on two meds to stop their frequency. He did display aggression to strangers prior to seizures. He now also displays growling and nipping at people he knows and likes,if they for instance try to push hm away from them after greeting. On Christmas Day he growled/nipped my adult son who gently shooed him away while opening presents. Later that day he attacked a visitor who I stupidly thought he knew, got his hand, fortunately I had a leash on him, will definitely not be letting him near strangers again. Ok am now following advice here on this site but would like to know which muzzle to get and how to fit it, I want to use it when friends/family come over for extended visits. I have also ordered a wire crate and will put him in it near me when people come over for short visits, he barks his head off if I gate him in an adjoining room. Does anyone have a used copy to sell of the obedience video, we are retired and all this is costing me a fortune! I am trying to use more positive behavior corrections. I think his Aussie dominance is worsened by the meds he is on. His sire was aggressive and had seizures we have found out. Thanks for help, we have battled his seizures and now this, we love him alot and want to do the right thing for him but also for humans too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> .

Hello Anneh,

6yo Aussie neutered

Please forgive me if you take offense to this post. I am fairly non-political when it comes to dogs and dog problems. I understand you wanting to keep this dog after all you have battled. That battle is nothing compared to the potential battle you will have if you do not isolate the dog from other people during a visit. You risk being bit and the dog biting others. You need professional help for your dog by some one who knows what they are doing. Sorry it is not cheap and easy. I think you already know this.

You can contain the problem somewhat by crates and muzzles but it will have no effect on fixing the dog’s problems. In fact in time your dog will understand the effects of a muzzle and could be more “opportunistic” for his behavior.

The highest incidence of dominance aggression occurs in intact males and is followed, in decreasing order of frequency, by castrated males, intact females who have had at least one litter to intact females and finally to spayed females.

Many people overlook behavior problems because their dog has been “fixed.” Many vets claim neutering as a cure-all for behavior problems. While some behaviors do recede to a lower level and thus more manageable, seldom does it eliminate behavior problems altogether.

Since I do not know you, I do not claim this is a fact in your case. In this public round-table, my statement will serve as a “seed” in all dog owners’ minds that don’t already know about this topic.

As a society we live by Walt Disney ideals with regard to our dogs. By placating growing behavior problems with Mickey Mouse reasons for abnormal domesticated behavior, we inadvertently enhance a once manageable problem.
At 6 years you will fix nothing in the dogs temperament and without professional help you will not easily quell his unacceptable behavior.

Lets look at you post Anneh. I am not trying to pick on you but I will try to isolate the cause of the behaviors you are describing. You can learn how I arrive to my conclusions.

Symptom: displays growling and nipping at people he knows and likes, if they for instance try to push him away ------ Dominance issue.

Symptom: growled/nipped my adult son ----- dominance aggression that is fear motivated (fear of being dominated)

With your son his dominance is being challenged. You may think, ”How is that? He loves my son.”

Your dog feels there is a threat to something that is important to him. In this case it happens to be social contact and reinforcement of social order. An interesting but common thing about many dominance aggressive dogs is their display of “affection.” His willingness to be loved confuses us into thinking he did not intend to do harm. He meant it. If you look close you will see your dog with placing paws on you and other subtle yet distinct signs of domination being exibitied.

The intensity of dominance aggression ranges from mild to severe and is balanced by temperament, perceived social position in the pack (your family and frequent friends he knows) and the environmental influences that exist at the time.

Dominance aggression develops around the time a dog reaches social maturity, which is about two years of age. It is connected to defense drives that are at 6 years old ingrained into his temperament.

You have mentioned that he was aggressive before. Without saying it, I knew it.

Treatment for your dog involves life-long management using a combination of controlling techniques.

You said: I have also ordered a wire crate and will put him in it near me when people come over for short visits, he barks his head off if I gate him in an adjoining room.

In his crate he will, in all likelihood, still bark his head off. In fact, he might be more bolstered after a mental adjustment to the crate has been made, because he will feel more protected in it.

Using a crate is fine and a containment idea I would recommend. Keep it out of sight of guest altogether unless you never want these people to never eat finger foods again.

Despite warnings, people think they are a “dog calmers”, who believe they can sooth the beast with words, kindness and love. Don’t even let them try it! The Whackos are about to be whacked if they do. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Your dog has a serious behavioral problem, which is common among canines. Even though it is common you should not believe it is any less acceptable. Nor should you take it lightly. Dominance aggression can pose a safety threat to friendly humans as well as foes. I call it the equal opportunity destroyer. Children that live in a household with a dog that has pronounced dominance aggression issues (closed “tight” mouth, growling and/or biting) are at greatest risk for serious injury and visitor are the next greatest risk. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

These bites will be fast, hard and often repetitive.

Find some qualified professional help to learn how to successfully manage these problems or destroy the dog. I am sorry. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

About professional help:

Not only is it often expensive there are people who by divine proclamation, think they are qualified to work these complex behavior problems.

Because of the invasion of dog enthusiast --- turned professional trainer --- turned expert, there are countless techniques to “treat” behavior problems. I will not give you all the tactics of these people but here is an example.

True story….

Male Dog 2 years of age

Environment: Group class of 20 people and their dogs with a trainer who has done agility, AKC obedience and dabbled in a few other things over a period of 5-6 years I think.

Dog’s Condition: Extreme fear aggression (This is not the same problem afflicting your dog’s mind.) and social dominate issues.

Trainer’s solution: Each time the dog barks and shows aggression she would squirt the dog in the face with a super soaker squirt gun and in calming light and smile say, “Shhhhhh.”

For those readers who are now on the floor…get up. There is more...

After that "modification method" did not work,(I hardly can think of the reasons why…lol )this “trainer” decided to "make friends” with the now super-soaked and now supper-pissed-off dog.

BANG dog eats “trainer’ and displaces aggression on owner trying to control this dog.

Again...true story.

You now see the need to be ready to interview the trainer and this person should have the experience and knowledge to answer your questions from the hip.

Do not be placated by the terms ‘behavior modification specialist’ or any person who is from the “Never Say No Operant Methodologist Club” who thinks they can fix your problems by trick and treat alone. The only thing modified will be your wallet.

Good luck

Thanks for the input. Yes I see the dominance problem in him and have removed his ability to sleep on my bed (he wasn't allowed on other furniture)also not allowing him to initiate play, has to wait to eat until we have eaten, sit for treats etc. Thanks for the comment about using the crate, also the muzzle, I was hoping the muzzle could have worked for when I have my grandchildren here for extended time. When you say use the right trainer, I am hoping that I can find one, I live in MD. Next week I have an appt with a neurologist who apparently has experience with aggression to request some appropriate testing in view of the seizures and a possible neurological connection. At the same facility they have a Behaviorist apparently trained at U.of PA. I was going to drive to U.of PA but its too long a drive for us, my vet recommended that we take him there. I don't want to take his life without trying to put things right, do you think its possible from your experience - I mean do you think this dog SHOULD be put down? The thought makes me ill but if there is no hope........ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

The decision to put the dog down is a personal one. I cannot recommenced it either way without seeing the dog and seeing the whole picture for myself. Understand, you can control behaviors but you cannot modify the dog’s temperament.

The first order of business is complete medical history, physical examination and gets some laboratories work, including testing of the thyroid hormone levels.

A good behavioral specialist will look at the context in which the aggression occurs and the components of the dog’s behavior during an aggressive episode. The problem with the “Lab” assessment is many dogs with dominance aggression do not exhibit classical dominance posturing (stiff body position, raised hackles, erect ears and tail, a direct stare) out of their homes. They may exhibit a fear posture or, as often is the case, a posture that includes varying degrees of both dominance and fear.

A flawed study maybe better then no study but keep in mind the room for error.

If you decide to keep the dog you need to eliminate, as much as possible, the circumstances in which the aggression occurs in order to prevent the aggressive behavior.

Since training will not treat dominance aggression, trainers can help develop behavioral tools to contain the problem and better educate you on dog behavior and dog body language and signals.

You may also want to ask about certain drugs that increase the availability of a neurotransmitter called serotonin. This will smooth out the progress of impulse control within his reactive arc.

Since I am not a veterinarian I will not recommend what drugs but your veterinarian will have some ideas I think.

Dennis

Dame your good. I agree with every word.
on

Thank you for your kindness and I will see what transpires next week at the medical evaluation and post any news. Btw my husband just admitted that he ws growled and nipped at a few months ago and I forgot (wishful thinking?) that one time last year when I was fostering a guinea pig for local shelter, he was trying to get at the gp fece and I pulled him away by his collar, he sat back on his haunches and snarled at me. Luckily I was able to yell at him to at least show displeasure (the other times it all happened too quickly) and when I asked a trainer about it she said most dogs would have reacted that way to being pulled like that so I put it out of my mind <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Its up to you, I would evaluate this dog and keep him away from people outside the family (you don't need to be sued).

If this aggression contiuned after attempt to fix by correcting for over a period of time I would put him outside. Watch him and let him out only when muzzled for play. I'm sure their is some medication that could sedate the dog, but that would cost you more and won't fix the problem.

The point I'm making is if he progressively get worse it is a decision that you have to make. Ask yourself is the saftey of your human family members worth the existence of your dog. If he penned up and can't interact with his family he miserable anyway and of no use to you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Originally posted by Dennis Hasley:

Since training will not treat dominance aggression, Dennis,

Amazingly, after reading you entire 2 threads, I come across this statement. Would you care to expand on this thought?

My opinion......save your money. Put the dog down. That is what I would do. Unless you can completely 100% be sure that this dog will never come in contact with a kid......see ya. I would not waste my time on some tree-hugging behaviorist who may or may not have a clue. Not to be insensitive, JMNSHU.

What kind of epilepsy does the dog have? What
medications is he on. Temporal lobe epilepsy may involve agressive outburst but they should be more random and not nessisarily evoked by the situation. SSRI's like Prozac (which just went generic and therefor costs less) may be an option as Dennis suggested. Other options would be Depakote often used to treat siezures and aggression/mood instability problems and antipsychotic medications which is probably the drug of chice to control aggression.

I also feel that control and or management of the problem is the best you can hope for. I wouldn't expect anyone to cure this problem.

Sometimes when you have a dog that has significant problems the most humane thing to do is also the hardest.

Good Luck

Well thanks to everyone for the varied opinions and ideas. My thought is that IF my dog can be helped I will do everything possible to achieve that goal. I maybe wrong but reading some posts on this board I sense some greater problems than the one I have and people seem to be trying to work it out. To just arbitrarily put my dog down without effort would not be something Iwould want to do. If he had randomly gone beserk and bitten someone for no reason, well I would already have said my goodbyes. In this case I feel that the aggression toward strangers coming to the house is not that abnormal alth not desirable behavior. The growling/nipping when people do something he doesn't like, well again its not right but I will try and see if I can manage this by keeping away from everyone. My husband and I are retired so most of the time the dog can lead a normal life, just when someone comes over I have to figure out how to contain him safely which is why I will give the crating etc a try. The appt with the neuro is to make sure I am not missing something medically wrong with him, in which case if it can't be fixed - well I will know to say goodbye. My husband and I hve decided to give a "management" program a try,keeping him away from people and see how it goes for us, if the barking etc drives us nuts - well we will know we did all we could. If the neuro only offers more drugs I don't think I will add more to this dog's life. He is on Pb and Kbr (for those that asked)also thyroid. So after a good checkup and down to earth talk we will see. He has been a faithful companion for 6 years and that is why I am asking you all these questions and trying to find answers. Thanks again <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />