I apologize if any of this has been answered in a different post. I have tried to read through many postings and Mr. Frawleys articles to avoid duplication but know have myself thoroughly confused.

I have an 11 month old GSD named Khaos. He recently seems to be testing hierarchy with my husband - Gabriel. Twice now upon coming home he has growled at my husband like he was a stranger, lowers his head -will only look at him sideways and his body is very tense. Some have stated maybe he didn't recognize him (I always thought recognition was more from scent than looks?) But-Even after he loosens up a bit the minute my husband pets him or calls him to him he gets tense. Also the other night Khaos was asleep on the floor in our bedroom, we got up after watching a movie to turn tv off etc. my husband bent down to wake Khaos to take him out for pee one last time. Khaos got up and again stood very tense. I thought well it was because he is still groggy- so I called Khaos to me and he came wagging tail and all. My husband called him back to him he tensed up again. So now you see -with me this is not so - he is relaxed, wags his tail happily and will look at me freely (not staring).He also will start this activity of bark/growl/lunge and bounce at my husband - biting (mouthy) but never biting down. It sounds serious but the it looks partially like playing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Our current trainer has explained that this is not acceptable - he is testing hierarchy and must realize his place. He has told us when Khaos does this bouncing/growling thing to calmly get his collar (prong)and lift him up into a sit with feet off the floor telling him to "quit it"! If he escalates then my husband was to escalate. Our trainer has also indicated he may have a "nerve" problem. But first we need to establish our leadership, continue basic obedience and keep a routine then re-evaluate. Especially since he is at an adolescent age. Khaos has been through basic obedience - knows the sit-down-stay-out-heel and come. You should also know that my husband gave stronger corrections than I. Matter of fact our trainer used to tease me saying "now when he doesn't listen you yank on the lease to give a correction so hard it nails him!" Then he would tell my husband "I tell her that because I know if I tell her give a 200% correction I will get 75%" - what can I say I am a wimp!
Lately when we put Khaos into his crate (this is whenever we go to work or are doing something that we can not completely watch him-such as cooking etc) he looks fearful. Won't look at you, will move away if you try and pet him and will even growl (only at my husband). He will go into his crate if I open it and tell him "inside". My husband usually must escort him and sometimes he growls. BUT- the second you open the door and let him out his demeanor changes to happy and playful. (Jeckyll and Hyde !)So now we are confused. I have read about dominance, aggresion and fear. It seems to all apply circumstantially. We have modified many things ie. we made a big mistake of letting him on the bed (stupid!) Ed was right about not understanding the hierarchy.
* No more on the bed period! He now sleeps on the floor. (Ed you had mentioned in certain circumstances it calls for removing the dog from bedroom entirely- I have an amateur quesion - if they are pack animals - it would seem a seperation from the pack?) He is allowed to sleep outside the crate at night because of our current schedule -we both work during the day if we were to crate him at night he would only get a few sporatic hours out and would be in the crate like 16 hours almost straight -we thought maybe this explained the "crate behavior" thought maybe he hated the crate "cabin fever".

* Doors he is made to sit until we walk through first.

* Meals he eats alone in the kitchen and is made to either down/stay or sit/stay until he is told it is okay to eat then the bowl is taken away upon finishing (he doesn't eat and leave so the time factor doesn't need apply).

* Even playtime is now a lot more obedience for play (ie. sit before throwing the ball for him, down and wait while we toss the ball then "free" him)

Please understand that my husband and I share 50/50 time with Khaos. I say this because many responses/advice I have gotten imply it is due to lack of interaction from one spouse "handler". Play time, feeding, walking, training. It is not a matter of one does more than the other. We are both attentive to him and apply the rules equally. So there is no confusion as to what the rules are. Now - the problem is, this behavior (dominance/agressive) whichever is towards my husband not me. So in our amateur conclusion and research we figure he see's me as alpha no question. My husband he is unsure-maybe even feels higher than him, is lacking respect and is quesioning his authority. I have sought advice from another post board and many have said they have the same issues and give examples -BUT all examples contain pieces of what Khaos does/acts not the same behavior. All say to relax, give more "cookie" training, positive reinforcement and our breeder has even said to let up on corrections and give more love (sorry Ed - don't beat us up to bad about that comment). Now- seriously. Should we come down hard on Khaos (will this break him?. OH another thing when we put Khaos into a plutz - if he does not listen we were told correct him and correction should be hard - so he understands "I was not asking, I am telling!". This seems to load him he will actually growl and yammer like "that hurt - I don't like it". But has never snapped (biting). Our trainer has said he is a "punk teenager" and needs to be put in his place. He is very dog aggressive (was attacked by a pit bull mix when he was about 6 months old- Khaos was on a tie out-pit ran into our site and went right for his throat before we could do anything-, a f*&%^g idiot that let his dog run free at a campsite -the only reason we were able to break it up is b/c Khaos was so young, the other dog was a year and b/c Khaos was on a tie out got backed into a tree so we were able to get in front of Khaos and both my husband and I ended up containing the other dog- idiot owner just stood there saying "don't hurt my dog" the only reason he interceded eventually is b/c I told him if he didn't grab his dog we were going to kill it!" don't know if Khaos ever recover from that one <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> ) Anyway-obviously still pissed about that one

So what I am looking for is:

1) Behavioral advice for us as well as Khaos(in the sense of how to establish hierarchy correctly without breaking bond)- I will be following your articles by the way Ed- but am looking for regime/routine <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

2) Direction - steps to take in correction methods etc. I want to do this right. I feel it is our responsibility to train ourselves to train Khaos. It seems from other stories we have one true shot at doing this right the first time. So I want to be sure to follow a regime both in training and instruction to Khaos and ourselves. (if their are books I need let me know I will buy them)

3) What is the line between breaking him and cookie training. We have been advised both ways and unfortunately are at a loss. My husband wants to know is should he continue compulsion training or do we switch another method. A trainer of companion dogs basically told us we are to harsh on Khaos and to change our training method immediately, that we are egging on this behavior. I have physically seen a French Mastiff trained by her (belongs to a family member) and if you don't have treats she won't listen. AND even then you have to ask like 2-3 times. IMO and my husbands - while this may work on a Golden Retriever I don't see it working with a GSD who is from working lines and even our breeder said he was the alpha of his litter! If I didn't think it would kill me to leave Khaos with her I would challenger her to take him and prove me wrong. I am more of a believer of what our trainer teaches - which is cookie to understand/correction after he understands what is being asked/then test with distraction to reinforce.

Sorry for the extremely long post - want to correct this soon <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Yvette, I may take some flack for this, but I agree with the "companion dog" trainer.

If your dog were challenging dominance, his head would be high, his tail high and stiff, his ears forward and erect, etc. His body language would exude confidence. What you're describing sounds like fear to me. I think perhaps your husband is too hard on him, and needs to lighten up and do some "cookie training" with him.

Perhaps others more knowledgeable than myself can elaborate.

Could you tell us a little more about his background? How old was he when you got him? Eight weeks, or older? How well did you socialise him around other men? Also, how do you and your husband talk to/act around eachother? Could he see you as being very dominant over your husband perhaps?
When you say that he does that bark/growl/lunge thing, does it look like he is being serious? It is very hard for me to picture this, because the dog could be doing these things in different ways. Does that make any sense? Under what circumstances does he do this?

Lastly, I am so sorry to hear about the unfortunate incident with the Pit Bull. It makes me soooo mad when people think they are above the law and can let their dog wander to and fro!

I think Lisa is right on this. It sound like the dog is acting out of defence, not aggression. Your husband needs to spend more play time with the dog and ease off on his corrections a bit.

Interesting dog - can you describe the dog's ear and tail posture at those times when he growls at your husband, like when he takes him to put him in the crate or when he corrects him into a down, etc? It sounds like defensive/fear aggression to me too, particularly if he won't make eye contact and stands sideways when your husband came home. But I sure would like to see the whole picture to read the body language.

Is this dog wearing a prong collar all the time? You said if he talks back, your trainer said to take him by the collar. Suggestion - lifting a dog slightly when he talks back can be extremely effective at stopping the behavior without getting into a pissing contest, but it should be done on a dead ring fursaver. The idea is not to cause pain (cuz pain from the prong can elicit MORE aggression); it is simply to put pressure on his windpipe. A prong won't do that cuz it only exerts pressure on the tips, causing pain instead of putting pressure on his air supply. A calm, emotionless lifting of the fursaver just enough to put pressure on him will often knock off that talking back without any aggression or conflict.

This dog does not see you as alpha

if anything he see's your husband as a threat to his desired position and you as his buddy and not a threat

I'd be curious to hear more about the dog's body language, too. What you've described so far does not sound like dominance, but more info would be helpful.

* Khaos was received about 10 weeks old. He came from Missouri via plane to California. The breeder would not release Khaos before 10 weeks to allow bonding with his litter mates.

* We have tried to socialize Khaos as much as possible - we are new to our area and unfortunately did not encounter much socialization ourselves. Approx. 1 weekly via neighborhood walks/visits and/or family visits.

* There are times that he is obviously playing around, but there are times when he is given a correction (prong collar) that he will bear his teeth while growling and barking. His ears seem submissivly back but like he is trying to say "that hurt and I don't like it!"

* When growling at my husband his ears are back, his tail is high and curled (erect), he is very stiff, is turned sideways - eyes are looking from the side but not directly at him

* He does wear a prong collar most of the time - only because it has in the past seemed most effective compared to his nylon collar.

* Gabriel and I are pretty equal - if looking at behavior/vocalization only then I would say Gabriel would have the appearance of dominance.

So it seems he displays both fear/dominance. My husband took him to a neighbors the other day - he behavied like a jewel, commands were obeyed, stayed close to husbands side would happily go over to the neighbors when they called him-get attention- then return to my husbands side. If Gabriel begins more positive reinforcement training then what type of "correction" would be recommended if he doesn't listen. Or what about for example when my husband approaches him and he begins to growl - after a firm "no" what would be the next step? Correction seems to instill a defensive response - perhaps change of collars (ie. E-Collar or Nylon Slip Collar)

In pack hierarchy if he see's me as his "buddy" then why does he listen to me? Wouldn't he ignore commands or test the one's he didn't wish to do? ie. going inside his crate, when I tell him "inside" he doesn't like it at all but will do it without question. Is it acceptable for him to view me as an equal.

This doesn't really sound too much like dominant aggression. I would assume he would growl at you too sometimes (or not obey you all the time) if this were the case. I wish I could meet your dog! This is so hard over the net. I guess we'll just do some questions:

1) Does Chaos most often growl at your husband when he's holding the lead or reaching for or holding the collar? Many young dogs have a 'choke-chain' phobia, which looks like dominance aggression but is in reality fear aggression and must be treated totally differently.

2) When Chaos barked at your husband coming home what was your husbands reaction? By any stretch of the imagination, could Chaos just have been greeting him?

3) If they were here and I asked your husband to do a 5min obedience excersise with Chaos, how would you describe the dog? Happy? Nervous? Relaxed? Tense? Would Chaos 'eye' him without turning his head? Would his tail be up or down?

4) If I asked your husband to roll chaos gently over and pet his belly would Chaos do it willingly?

5) Has your husband owned another dog before, if so what breed?

6) Some dogs react this way when they have been abrubtly and too sharply corrected a few times. Does this ring a bell? Did you ever instintually think your husband was using more 'muscle' than neccessary? This too is fear aggression and could be worse if the dog still had some trauma (physical or mental) from a pit-bull attached to its neck.

7) Does chaos like to be 'cuddled' if so by whom?

8) Your trainer mentioned a possibility of 'bad nerves' please elaborate.

9) Can you describe your husband's voice with the dog? Does he have a tendancy to speak austerely, does he ever yell?

If my instict is correct, Chaos needs a softer hand. Meanwhile the growling should be ignored completely and more petting (while watching tv) from your husband as well as more playing should be added. Fetch is a good game because there can be no confrontations. And please don't scold the dog for barking to get the ball back. 11 months is still a puppy and a spoiled puppy that is a little dominant is a whole lot easier to fix than a puppy that has been 'broken'. That's why I'd say if there is ANY doubt (on whether its fear aggression or not), try to be softer on the dog. You can always go harder next year but you can never force a dog to be confident if you've scared it outta him.

Yvette,

I think Stella made a good point in your husband may be to hard on the dog. The dog is very young and your using a prong collar. The prong does a lot of the work for you and if he is using the same fource to correct that he would be using with a regular choker it may be to much for the dog.

How long has he been on a prong?

Gary Wiegand