I realize that I have a down but not a long down. Today at the competition Kaiser blew the long down. He got up after a few minutes .

I need some serious advice on training the long down including down when handler is out of sight.

Ram

Ram, I bet since you posted this question earlier you gave it more thought and realized you knew the answer all along...

It is just a matter of extending the time he is on a down - longer and longer. Do this in the house when you are at the computer or wherever... put him in a down and after a few minutes say good, treat, etc... (Don't use your marker until you are releasing him but I do offer treats during the extended positions). If he starts to break at any time - nope/ah ah! or what ever you say to get him to stop, put him back down.

You can also tie his leash to something (inside or outside) so that if he does break, he doesn't get the opportunity to leave that spot.

When I trained the "out of sight" I started inside the house, put him on a down, stepped behind the wall for one second, then came back and said good/treated. Then you just extend the time you are out of his sight. Then take it outside, etc...

For a seven month old pup in a completely new environment with dogs, people etc... a long down is asking a lot! He did great to hold it a few minutes.

Do not increase time & distance at the same time. Work on one or the other. When the longer time down is very solid...then you can add distance.

the method I use requires good marksmanship, with the dog in the down I'll toss treats between the front paws, be sure to stop the game if the get up and start over. work on time first

Here is how the long down is done. It is a group exercise. 10 dogs side by side and we put them on a down and walk away. The dog has to remain in the down with other dogs by it's side.

In my home, on the concrete floor, he used to long down for 10 minutes. But this was grass with dreaded ants ( his nemesis ) and He got up. The only difference between Kaiser and others was that the other police dogs when they did the down, they have their heads between their front legs lower jaw flat on the ground. Kaiser has his head up while doing Platz, so he turrets his head around like a periscope and starts seeing what is happening around him and then gets a whiff of something, starts staring at it, fixates on it and boom , he gets up. Then he doesnt know what to do , so he comes to me. No verbal corrections are allowed in the competition, so I cant say NO PLATZ.

I asked a police man whose dog did not blow the long down and he said that keeping the head down between the legs in the ONLY way to do the down. He said my down is inherently unstable and will ALWAYS FAIL.

Also the police use extreme compulsion (read beatings). I have never used extreme compulsion, not even e-collar nicks for obedience behaviours, only verbal "BAD BOY". or NO PLATZ in a harsh voice.

To achieve a super stable down, should compulsion be involved. I have no problems with compulsion, as long as it will work.


please help me with my query. The fact that I blew the long down While all along I had been smug thinking that I had it in the bag, is bothering me. I want to fix this problem.

Ram, it makes no difference that your dog's head was up as far as success or failure at the long down. The reason he blew it had nothing to do with the position of his head.

What you need to do is start from the beginning as if he did not know the down at all, not at home but someplace where there is grass (preferably without the dreaded ants at first if possible), and little or no distractions. Start from the beginning, stage one training -- "down," mark and reward if he complies. Gradually increase the time (without distractions as far as possible) first until he will stay in the down position double the time required for the long down. Second, start increasing distance. Lastly, start adding distractions once again begin close to the dog gradually adding distance as he succeeds. Continue his training in various locations and on different surfaces always starting at the beginning until he thoroughly understands that he must comply no matter where he is or what's happening around him (yes, even dreaded ants).

Corrections should come only when you are sure he understands the command in the location you're training. Remember just because he understands it at home does not mean he really understands that he must comply at the park or on grass, or dirt, or around ants. Also, he is very young and is truly doing amazingly well. Keep up the great work.

By the way, if the ants are anything like the fire ants we have here in the Deep South I can't blame him completely for his attitude.

Ram, think of all the videos you've seen on Schutzhund dogs in competition doing the long down... I've never seen heads down with muzzles between front paws. This should tell you that it is NOT necessary to achieve the behavior.

Adding compulsion to Kaiser for this in my opinion, is a very bad idea and is going to undo much of the positive reinforcement you've done.

Unless you have a rock solid long down in the house, I would begin again inside - THEN move to the grass. My reason is that the grass/ants are a distraction and you want him to be solid on the long down before adding distractions. JMHO.

Ram, the fact that Kaiser broke the down is not a reflection that you "are a bad trainer". He is s pup who doesn't like ants. I don't blame him. Try to not let any "ego" get in the way of your training; it is a process and this is just a bump in the road. If you begin to get frantic and "I HAVE TO FIX THIS NOW" that can transfer into your training in a negative way. Again, jmho. You are doing great and so are your dogs. Keep having fun. Competitions should be enjoyable for both you and your dogs.

It sounds similar to the long down in AKC obedience over here Ram. I can only remember seeing a few dogs with their heads down and I'm sure it was because they were lower drive dogs that were just so comfortable laying down it was more like a nap then an obedience. Pay attention to his hips, if he shifts them to one side or the other, they're usually stable enough to hold the position.

One thing I would differ on is the distractions. I would use them before you add distance. Be right in front of him, leash in hand. Being lined up with 10 other dogs is allready some amount of distraction so for your trials, I think that is the issue to focus your training on. Being close will make it easier to be clear with the reward for ignoring the distraction and put him back in the same spot if he breaks.

Ram, you have a Dobe, correct?!
Their down is usually like an Egyptian Sphinx. They have all four legs square under them.
Teach the down say where the dog is rolled on his hip. That way you can get a warning when the dog starts to get up.
I vary the time and distance all the time in my sit and down stay. Sometimes I will walk away just a step or so and then mark and reward. Sometimes I will walk away and return quickly, the mark and reward.
As the exercise gets better I will run away, run back and jump over the dog, jump up and down in front of the dog, walk away backwards, do whatever I can to let the dog know it has to stay where I put it.
EVERYTHING is done randomly so the dog never gets any idea of how long or how far away I will be. What I do when I'm gone OR even if I go out of sight.
YOu also train with an e-collar I think?
The dog may very well have become collar wise and knows you can't correct it when the collar is off in competition. No consequence to leaving.
Use marker training and reward to give the dog a positive experience with the down, not just a negative with corrections.