So I have an APBT that a freind brought over..just for kicks and giggles and puppy tested him and he scored vary well. abpt have a ton of drive anyway, but he also has a good amount of defense it seems.. Anyways.. i had on 2 oven mits on the other day..and the lil guy came over and i accidentaly droped the spoon.. i reached down to get it and that lil guy went to town on the "sleeve" !!! haha.. i thought it was great. I called the owner of the dog and told him that i tested him and that i thought he would make a great defense or shutzhund dog and he agrees. My question is, that up to this point he has been socialized to death. If i completely change his training from "pet" to "working dog" can that cause any problems later in life? He's a very hard driven animal, so I think he can handle it, just wondering what maybe i should watch out for.

At nine weeks, he will not have "a ton of defence". Just doesn't work that way... A puppy is either playing or is scared, not in defense (unless he is defending himself from you, and then you have some major issues, and in this case that would be a VERY bad thing, not a positive thing at all...) or protective.

Is this your dog, or your friends? You are talking about you changing the dogs training, not your friend...

What experience do you have in bite sports?

Training a dog in sport does not change the dogs personality at all. It does not make them suddenly untrustworthy, and will not cause them any problems later in life. BUT if the dog is nervy or if the owner is not up to the responsibility of a bite trained dog, then I would recommend NOT doing this.

I say this because if the dog is not "able to handle it" and he DOES have issues, then a bite trained Pitt is a VERY bad idea. They have enough image problems that they don't need.

If the owner of this dog is wanting to compete in a sport, then they need to join a club and learn from experienced trainers. This is not a do-it-yourself deal...

(No accusation in any of this, just from the way things a worded it appears that there is a lack of experience with sport work, so I posted accordingly... )

no ill be the first to tell you that i dont have the greatest amount of experiance, but i wouldn't take it on on my own either. I have read, watched videos, helped at schutzhund clubs, been around dogs my entire life. I currently am in the process of getting my own GSD for myself, as i feel comfortable working a dog and the beginning levels. You have to start somewhere, and like i said, this pup kinda just "fell into my lap" so to speak.

i say that about defense because many times, my own personal Pit walks over and the dog will stop playing with me, and stand in the middle of us, tail up legs spread, and bark. he does not like it when the other dog approaches me at all. (this action was why i puppy tested him in the first place).. now at first i thought this maybe because he thinks I'm his "toy" or that it was a bit of dog aggression, so I left him alone with a couple of toys and sent my dog (nitro) in...and the pup was just fine. (i should also note, i gave him a high value toy, and made sure his drive was up as much as possible before i sent nitro in. i figured if there woudl be a reaction, it would show the greatest then..There was no reaction to his presence) .its just with me he does this. I havent gotten this reaction with any people yet, just the dog. its odd, because I've never seen a pup do it. not at 9 weeks anyway. also, it is a friends dog, but we both have been around these dogs a long time and know how high drive and strong they are. and we both know that they can use a good outlet like schutzhund for all the energy they posses..

also, if you do the exact same "puppy test" that was done in one of the videos from this site.. i think it was how to raise a working puppy, or bite training a puppy.. one of those... the dog seemed to do outstanding in each area. the only one that wasn't almost perfect was the one where you lay them on the back and hold them. it started off as agression, for a good 20 seconds or so then turned to avoidance then back to agression before finally turning to acceptance. I refused to let him go at the avoidance stage as i didnt want to reinforce it just in case, At no other time has he shown any other signs of avoidance. the "pot drop test" he didn't even blink. Like i said, he seems to be a good strong even tempered dog, but from what i have learned since i started learning about all this stuff, im seeing what i was told to look for.

The question i posed, about being so socialized, came from my understanding the protection dogs didnt need to be petted by anyone.. being he already has been ( a great amount btw) I was wondering if that would cause training problems later down the road. Not if it would change his personality so much, just if i needed to foresee any issues. If you have any advice, Im willing to listen.

 Quote: james biggs

so I left him alone with a couple of toys and sent my dog (nitro) in...and the pup was just fine. (i should also note, i gave him a high value toy, and made sure his drive was up as much as possible before i sent nitro in.

In my opinion, this is a rather poor idea...setting two dogs up, an adult and a pup, to "defend" toys. The toys are YOURS - NOT the dogs', and giving either one of them the opportunity to take them away from each other at this point is asking for trouble. JMHO.

i agree completely. Nitro however would not try to take the toy.. his job was to walk to his bed..(right beside the pup playing) and lay down. He knows better than to do anything other than what i tell him. I wouldn't of sent a dog in that i thought would of antagonized the pup, took his toys, or reacted in any way other that what i wanted. the whole point was to see if the pups reaction to the earlier situation was one of dog agression, fear, or what. as i said, the pup just continued to play with his toys... he looked at nitro, but only for a brief second..didnt growl, pick up his toys and move, or anything..just acted like a happy puppy without a care in the world. Which brings me right back to the point of " why does he act the way he does when the owner/handler are around" in my opinion, it can only be one thing and that is the pup showing a defensive side. But like i said, i could be reading it wrong, im not the pro, you guys are.

We're not pro's but we do have a little bit of experience and used many of Ed's training articles and vids

As have I. I have been studying this for 2-3 years and i am only now to a point where i feel comfortable raising/training a PPD. My whole point of this post was, "did i just happen to have the right pup fall into my hands at the right time, and if so, whats the impact of that last 8 weeks with no 'work oriented' structure"

 Quote: james biggs

As have I. I have been studying this for 2-3 years and i am only now to a point where i feel comfortable raising/training a PPD. My whole point of this post was, "did i just happen to have the right pup fall into my hands at the right time, and if so, whats the impact of that last 8 weeks with no 'work oriented' structure"

I'd read Ed's article on groundwork, at eight weeks you don't know what you have esp from Pits. If you want to do Sch or PPD then you should look to breeders of PPD and Sch, even then, you may get one that doesn't work out.

Well aware of that. And I will dig that article up. My favorite video as been that on raising working puppies! its excellent! Also, I will look into it, but I believe this pups pedigree does have some titles in it. I will have to look again as I only glanced, and they may just of been Confimation titles but i will check into it. Thanks for all the advice guys.

I would leave the 'training' to the people that have experience & know what they are doing. Go to a local club & let the decoy work these dogs & the TD teach you how to be a handler of a sport dog, knows how to bring a puppy along. There is a reason why handlers don't work dogs, trained decoys do. And there are plenty of decoys that are not good with working pups.

From you post...it sounds like your dog was 'resource guarding' not being protective or dog aggressive.

You don't EVER work a mentally imature dog or puppy in defense. NOT EVER.

Many of the sport dogs are social to varing degrees. Some may be aloof, but that is not the same as anti-social. TRUE PPDs, (now I'm talking the lethal dogs that 99.9% of the population can't own & don't need to own & don't want the liability incurred in ownership)are not social dogs. There are a few out there that posess a degree of socialibility...but they are VERY far & few. A good friend of mine had one.

On the other hand there are dogs that do sport & can do PP to a degree....by that I mean that they will bite when told & have a good anmount of fight drive & are not easily put off. But this is by no means the same as a true PPD that will be far more lethal & is truly 'in it to win it'.