I posted awhile back about supplements for my 15 month old rottie. He has had 3 bacteria infections in his life, two of probably known causes, this last one a number of things could have caused it. We are just now on the last day of Flagyl. SO I know he is clear of bacteria/giardia/etc.

We have been dealing with trying to get consistently good poops for most of his life, just in the last couple months changing to Orijen adult from Taste of the Wild. His poops will be fine, then slightly soft, then a pudding, then fine, on and on.

Last week we did an expanded food allergy test panel on him, but it will be a week or so before that comes in. I have also put him on a good people probiotic. I am going to add a digestive enzyme also. The pet food store uses and promotes Nature Vet probiotic and enzymes. I have thought about Perfect Form also as an option for helping in general.

At this point, we are on the last day of generic Flagyl, and he has had one day of good poops and still has the runs. I talked to the vet. He said he doesn't need any more flagyl, but he would like to either treat him with Bactril? for ulcerative colitis(I told him he has never had blood in his poop and almost never except when he had bacterial infections before had any mucous) or he would like to put him on Science Diet W/D. I told him I do not want to feed the dog corn and chicken meal. He said he will leave a script for Science Diet out front for me to pick up the food, and then we will try Bactril.

IMHO opinion, I was thinking more along the lines of chicken/rice and pumpkin only for a few days until he gets squared away from this bout. THen try a higher fiber food, or a fiber additive to a lower fiber food. Maybe Orijen is not the food for him(his sister can't eat it, it gives her the runs). I have no problem swapping, and may do it anyway just to see how he does with somethig else. When the allergy test comes back we will have a clear picture of whether he has an allergen problem.

Then I think I should work really hard on getting his immune system built up, while feeding something that is easy on his belly. He had a rough first year, constant pain from elbow dysplasia, pain during treatments for it, and finally free of that, along with the stomach stress of 3 infections. Plus a lot of puppy shots. Maybe he needs an immune system overhall. I want to stay with a good probiotic, add a good enzyme product, try to find the right food for him, and see where that takes us.

My questions is, is there any such thing as a good high fiber food. If not, what can I add in to increase it? Is there any obvious flaws to my logic, or plan? ANy things to add in to it, or subtract out? I am waiting on a call back from the breeder for her to tell me what she knows on this. She knows her dogs pretty well.

I would love to feed raw, but just plain can't afford it right at this point. It will be the first thing I do if or when that changes. (I lost work just like a lot of people lately.) He still gets the care he needs, but feeding him raw is not workable right now same as I can't eat all organic like I would like to. SO I need to try to find what will work on a kibble diet. I thank you all ahead of time for any and all advice. This is definitely a work on progress and any bits of info help to bring the whole picture together.

What I know and sorry if it doesn't help.
The canidae does not handle fiber the same way we do, and in fact they don't handle it at all well.
It is easier for them all the way around the more you can stay away from fiber as such.

If buying raw is a problem for you contact the nearest dairy, cattle rancher or the nearest wild game butcher. The next time a season comes around you can put more dog meat and bone aside then you can imagine.

I posted awhile back about supplements for my 15 month old rottie. He has had 3 bacteria infections in his life, two of probably known causes, this last one a number of things could have caused it. We are just now on the last day of Flagyl. SO I know he is clear of bacteria/giardia/etc.

You know he is clear of bacteria/Giardia, how? (No one is ever clear of bacteria.) You mean a bacterial infection? Finishing a drug means nothing more than finishing a drug. It's not a proof that the drug did what it was meant to do.

What Giardia tests were done? I'm not arguing ... just not following.

We have been dealing with trying to get consistently good poops for most of his life, just in the last couple months changing to Orijen adult from Taste of the Wild. His poops will be fine, then slightly soft, then a pudding, then fine, on and on.

You posted a few months ago, right? What tests were done then? I think roundworms, negative, but the Giardia tests not done?

Last week we did an expanded food allergy test panel on him, but it will be a week or so before that comes in.

What kind of food allergy test panel? Do you mean blood or intradermal tests? For food allergies?



At this point, we are on the last day of generic Flagyl, and he has had one day of good poops and still has the runs. I talked to the vet. He said he doesn't need any more flagyl, but he would like to either treat him with Bactril? for ulcerative colitis(I told him he has never had blood in his poop and almost never except when he had bacterial infections before had any mucous) or he would like to put him on Science Diet W/D. I told him I do not want to feed the dog corn and chicken meal.

I'm with you on SD.

He said he will leave a script for Science Diet out front for me to pick up the food, and then we will try Bactril.

I would like to hear more about the Giardia tests, and why the vet is thinking colitis (and Baytril).

IMHO opinion, I was thinking more along the lines of chicken/rice and pumpkin only for a few days until he gets squared away from this bout. THen try a higher fiber food, or a fiber additive to a lower fiber food. Maybe Orijen is not the food for him(his sister can't eat it, it gives her the runs). I have no problem swapping, and may do it anyway just to see how he does with somethig else.

When the allergy test comes back we will have a clear picture of whether he has an allergen problem. You might want to read up on food allergies here. (1) They are not diagnosed with a blood test. (2) True allergies in dogs present with itchy skin, which you have not mentioned.

And please post back about the Giardia tests: Do you know what test was done?


A high-fiber food wouldn't be my plan. TOTW or Orijen may not be the right food for this dog, but "high-fiber" is not really suitable for any reasonably healthy canid.

You mentioned chicken and rice and plain pumpkin for "this bout." Does that mean that you have used this in the past and got good log poops? For how long? Then what? Immediate diarrhea when he returned to commercial food?


I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I know how frustrating it is.

Let me first say that if your GP vet has recommended blood tests for diagnosing food allergies, it's not just him. Lack of knowledge about allergies among GP vets is very common; in fact, it's a specialty for a good reason.

QUOTE from Doctors Foster & Smith at PetEducation.com (with whom every authoritative vet manual and vet site agrees):

"The symptoms of food allergies are similar to those of most allergies seen in dogs and cats. The primary symptom is itchy skin affecting primarily the face, feet, ears, forelegs, armpits and the area around the anus. Symptoms may also include chronic or recurrent ear infections, hair loss, excessive scratching, hot spots, and skin infections that respond to antibiotics but reoccur after antibiotics are discontinued. There is evidence that dogs with food allergies may sometimes have an increased incidence of bowel movements. ... It is difficult to distinguish an animal suffering from food allergies from an animal suffering from atopy or other allergies based on physical signs. .... Blood Testing: There is no evidence that blood tests are accurate for the diagnosis of food allergies. Veterinary dermatologists insist that there is no merit in these tests whatsoever in the diagnosis of food allergies. The only way to accurately diagnose food allergies is with a food trial as detailed above. While the intradermal skin testing is excellent for diagnosing atopy (inhalant allergies) it is ineffective for food allergies. While specialized blood tests can be used to help in the diagnosis of atopy, they have no benefit in diagnosing food allergies. In our review of all the current books and articles on veterinary dermatology and allergies, we could not find a single dermatologist that endorsed anything other than the food trial as an effective diagnostic aid. If you want to diagnose and treat food allergies you must do a food trial." END


I recall your previous post about supplements and I asked about parasite testing (like Giardia) but all I remember is that he was tested negative.

How? What test?

QUOTE:
In most cases, a veterinarian will request three different stool samples, taken at two-day intervals. Though the Giardia cysts are not visible to the naked eye, they are usually able to be clearly identified under a microscope. A fecal sample will be thoroughly examined for Giardia cysts, which are usually detected 90% of the time after three samples (50-70% of the time from one examination).

In some cases, a Trichrome stain is used in order to more clearly detect any parasites or cysts that are present. FROM http://www.giardiaindogs.com/giardia-in-dogs-diagnosis.php

 Quote: Julie Sloan

We have been dealing with trying to get consistently good poops for most of his life, just in the last couple months changing to Orijen adult from Taste of the Wild. His poops will be fine, then slightly soft, then a pudding, then fine, on and on.

So THIS is the current situation? The poop issues described above are the problem?

If so, that doesn't sound that bad to me.

How much food per day?

How many meals a day?

How much does the bag say to feed?

You might be right!

Maybe it's not a continuation of last year's bouts.

I have to stop assuming.

Definitely want to rule out a continuation of the previous infections, though.

I just want to make sure that the dog isn't eating 1 meal a day at bag rate.

You're so right, too! Let's start simple!

Ok, first of Randy,thank you for the really wonderful idea of other places to consider getting raw food from. I will be making inquiries. I already had picked up some flyers frm farmers market on where to get antibiotic free beef before my pay got cut, so I will start there. Maybe at least he can eat it! :-)

Also for the tip on high fiber. that is exactly what I was looking for. Was that even the right direction to be looking. No wonder all the good kibbles have only 2-3%.

As for amounts. The bag says 4 1/4 is max for a dog with at least an hour of exercise a day. ANd up to 110 pounds. He weighs 97. I have been feeding him right below or at that amount, unless it is a day we get less exercise, then a little less food. He still eats three meals a day, since I or my husbnad tend to be here enough to keep him on that schedule.The owner of the pet food supply suggested that Orijen tends to "overfeed" by bag amounts, so maybe to cut back a little. It already feels like he eats so little, but as long as he is getting what he needs.

I am extremely disappointed to hear about the accuracy of blood allergy testing in dogs. I did a quick amount of research last night. I also have a dermatologist number to call today and also a message in with the vet who did mine(she is not my reg vet). This is something I didn't do research on beforehand. I had my food allergies tested for by blood and didn't think about there being that much of a difference in detecting antigens. More wasted money if it turns out not to be accurate. Nothing I can do now if that is so, unless I could get the vet to see the "light" and she felt bad and refunded my money.(Do you hear me laughing here?)

He does not itch, almost never, in fact probably the most non-itching dog I have ever seen. He does have runny eyes, they have always been like that, and his nose runs clear on and off. That made me think allergies of some sort, but since they started when he was very young, not inhalant allergies. My own food allergies don't give me any atopic symptoms. Again, should have researched the differences beforehand.

I don't have any idea why the vet wants to think colitis. I know that he got the first two bac. infections most likely form horse manure, which we have since taken stronger measures to keep him away form any of it. This one could be the deer, rabbit, turkeys in the yard, or what he finds when we hike, more of the same. Never blood ever in his poop, and only mucousy a couple times during the infections. Normal problem is just can't get it to stay firm. If he got runs during times of stress, and no bacteria showed up on tests, I would be way more inclined to look at something like that. I don't intend to give him another med unless I have cause to think it really is that.

As fro giardia, I know when I asked about supplements, we talked about giardia. I researched it then, and I did again just now. I read the article from fosters and smith and some stuff that is reprinted from the vet manual, and talked to the vet. It is obviously extraordinarily hard to dx, with a neg not always being neg and a pos not meaning that is the cause of the diarrhea. There are so many unknowns in treating, and even whether the treatments even completley clear it from the dog, not just from the feces. IMHO, if I had to chase the dx, I would treat for it instead. With the understanding that if he had it and most likely got it right here in his own yard or woods, he will most likely get it back again at some point. I read at one point, statistics on how many dogs they think are actually acutely infected or carriers, so still infected. It was astronomical.Something else I want to ask the breeder about when we talk, since with competition hunting dogs, I can't imagine this isn't something she is well versed in treating. Maybe we will have to do treatments on occassion just to take care of it if that is so.

As for being clear from the bacterial infection, I would reason that if we go back to normal, that we are. I know that a dog is never bacteria-free, I just wrote it like that for simplicities sake.

We live in a wildlife thoroughfare, and we hike almost daily in the woods with springs, streams, wildlife. he is going to be exposed to their poop, pee, and water. Just like a hunting dog. I can either get his immune system up to where I can only hope he can ingest a "normal" amount of bacteria that a normal dog who lives in the country does, without a full-blown infection. Or be able to swap him to raw which would "possibly" change his stomach ph low enough to maybe take care of the normal bacteria he runs across. Maybe neither of those would work, maybe he just has a sensitive stomach that is going to cause problems a lot. I hope we can find a way to get it to work.

We did rice, chicken, pumpkin before to be easy on his belly, and then transitioned him back to regular food, and he doesn't go back to diarrhea or he would have gone back to the vet. He goes back to his norm, which is a mixture of what I described above.And as one gentleman said, maybe I am looking for too much. I put him on it now fro the same reason and because he seems to have to recover form the antibiotic itself even though the vet said Flagyl is pretty sparing to good bacteria.

OK, I think I hit everything that was asked. I appreciate the input. That gives me some more info to go forward. Thanks!