I'd like to have a discussion on how to best work with a dog who is beginning to show more aggression to family members (aggression which was addressed with unsuccessful strategies whose results must now be weighed into a new plan) -- similar to the recent topic of the beagle who was becoming more and more aggressive to the child in the family.

(I checked with Connie to make sure it was okay to continue this topic even though it is not "my" issue at this point.)

I know I could learn more about ground work and pack structure for situations such as this. How would the experienced folks on this forum go about re-training a one year old dog who has begun biting family members, growling, etc... I knew enough to teather the dog and PREVENT the situation from happening, and that inappropriate corrections would only escalate the problem, but would like insight on where I'd to go from there.

I'm interested, too. I hope CJ reads and chimes in.

From the little we learned in the last conversation I figured the beagle was fear aggressive. I've heard that's the most difficult dog problem to fix. I certainly would have no idea where to start.

I learned a lot in a 900 message long PM thread the other day.

It took that many messages for a few seasoned board members to drill into my thick skull that basically all issues are treated the same.

Pack structure, focus and obedience.

 Quote: Lauren Jeffery

I learned a lot in a 900 message long PM thread the other day. ...

Pack structure, focus and obedience.

Lauren, you learn well! What a succinct statement ... and true.

And much better folks than I will advise here ....

... but of course I always add my 1 cent's worth (when I get home).

The beginning: http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/318757/page/0/fpart/1

hard to say where the aggression came from, but it's definitely not one of those correct till it stops situations.

When my first grandchild was born my JRT would just stand there and growl when I picked her up. This is a dog that can't handle physical pressure. He stresses out and turns into a buzz saw.
I put the dog on lead, tied to a table leg and sat my gdaughter on my lap, just out of reach of the dog (obviously).
Any passive interest (sniffing, "friendly" tail wagging) show by the dog was rewarded with a treat. Aggression, even if it was just alerting and I gave a simple "no" and ignored the dog. I did this for a few weeks and it didn't take long for the dog to head for the table leg when I picked up the gdaughter. This told me he was starting to understand.
Now, with 5 gkids ranging from 12 yrs to 5 yrs this dog(now 15)follows them around looking for treats. They can even pick him up and he's quite happy about it.
Will I ever trust this dog alone with the kids. NO, but under supervision he's fantastic with them.
Wil all my kids and now gkids, I have them help feed the dog when they are over.
First off, I trust my two GSDs with kids. Still supervised of course.
The kids give the dogs half their food in their bowls. The other half is place in the bowls by the kids a handful at a time.
Again, it doesn't take time for the dogs to figure out that kids coming near their food means a hand out and not a threat to take the food. had I understood markers this would have gone much quicker
I wouldn't advise an inexperienced person to to do this. You MUST be able to read the dog! You MUST have full control of the dog!
I don't believe this is the case here but I spoke of it to show that this dog needs to understand the kids aren't there as a threat to his food. The owner needs to understand leadership is more the problem and physical control without leadership is a wreck waiting to happen.
The child shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the dog while eating. Till the situation is cleared up I wouldn't let the child and dog interact at all.
With an inexperienced person I would suggest a good trainer. If that isn't successful I would find the dog a good home.
As to the Petsmart/Petco type trainers, the only qualification for teaching at most of these places is passing a written exam. Are there good ones out there? Probably, but they are few and far between!

C onnie, I had great teachers!

I also learned that you have to give the dog the benefit of the doubt. You never know what the situation appears to be through their eyes.

What appears to be a stubborn behavioral problem can simply be confusion.

There is a great Michael Ellis video on the site where he talks about how different dogs will handle confusion and fear differently. I wish I could find the link, but the concept (as I remember it) is that some dogs will shrink away and others will lash out.

Either way, it should be handled the same, since the root of the problem is no different.

 Quote: bob scott

hard to say where the aggression came from, but it's definitely not one of those correct till it stops situations.

When my first grandchild was born my JRT would just stand there and growl when I picked her up. This is a dog that can't handle physical pressure. He stresses out and turns into a buzz saw.
I put the dog on lead, tied to a table leg and sat my gdaughter on my lap, just out of reach of the dog (obviously).
Any passive interest (sniffing, "friendly" tail wagging) show by the dog was rewarded with a treat. Aggression, even if it was just alerting and I gave a simple "no" and ignored the dog. I did this for a few weeks and it didn't take long for the dog to head for the table leg when I picked up the gdaughter. This told me he was starting to understand.
Now, with 5 gkids ranging from 12 yrs to 5 yrs this dog(now 15)follows them around looking for treats. They can even pick him up and he's quite happy about it.
Will I ever trust this dog alone with the kids. NO, but under supervision he's fantastic with them.
Wil all my kids and now gkids, I have them help feed the dog when they are over.
First off, I trust my two GSDs with kids. Still supervised of course.
The kids give the dogs half their food in their bowls. The other half is place in the bowls by the kids a handful at a time.
Again, it doesn't take time for the dogs to figure out that kids coming near their food means a hand out and not a threat to take the food.

had I understood markers this would have gone much quicker

I wouldn't advise an inexperienced person to to do this. You MUST be able to read the dog! You MUST have full control of the dog!
I don't believe this is the case here ... but I spoke of it to show that this dog needs to understand the kids aren't there as a threat to his food. The owner needs to understand leadership is more the problem and physical control without leadership is a wreck waiting to happen.
The child shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the dog while eating. Till the situation is cleared up I wouldn't let the child and dog interact at all.
With an inexperienced person I would suggest a good trainer. If that isn't successful I would find the dog a good home.
As to the Petsmart/Petco type trainers, the only qualification for teaching at most of these places is passing a written exam. Are there good ones out there? Probably, but they are few and far between!

" The owner needs to understand leadership is more the problem and physical control without leadership is a wreck waiting to happen.
The child shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the dog while eating. Till the situation is cleared up I wouldn't let the child and dog interact at all.
With an inexperienced person I would suggest a good trainer. If that isn't successful I would find the dog a good home."

Great post, Bob (as always).

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Great post, Bob (as always).

I agree, excellent post Mr. Scott. A great, positive, step by step to teach both dog and children how to interact with each other.

And I’m no expert but having just read the related post, I would not categorize this as fear aggression. This scenario is quite typical of households where a family pet is acquired simply to cuddle, feed and watch grow. I would recommend a chia pet for their purchase.

With a lack of pack structure, appropriate behavior not being taught and rewarded and improper exercise, a dog left to figure it out on his own will only remain stable for so long – they need leadership.

The family will usually question what went wrong; he was such a great puppy. Sure, great before he started to mature at rate much quicker than our children do. What was fine for play last month has now become unbearable for the pup and a threatening display is his only way to show how uncomfortable he is.

To the inexperienced parents, who only wanted a cuddly puppy to entertain their child, there seems to be no concept that they’ve done anything wrong up to this point. When they go looking for a quick fix and feel they’ve expended enough money, time and resources, not getting the answer they were looking for and once the child has received “enough” injuries, the dog ends up dead. He was a bad dog after all.

The baby “sweet” talk from this child that would spark this dog was such a good indicator that this pup could no longer tolerate what was to follow. She is seven years old and needs to be taught a more mature way of interacting with this animal. Dad needs to manage this situation (complete separation from the child) until he has trained the dog to behave appropriately and then passed those skills onto his daughter.

The OP went from no discipline to a level 10 e-collar correction, while the dog was acting in an extremely aggressive manner, in the presence of his child no less. He then chose to twist and turn a small portion of Mr. Frawley’s correction advice to condone this extremely “abusive” use of the e-collar tool.

This dog has been set up for failure with a child as the bait no less. The only association that the dog can reasonably take away from something like this is that this child is something that he wants no part of, something to destroy.

 Quote: Daniel Hieronymu

It was a pretty aggressive shaking his head type of bite that broke the skin.

He will try to jump on her and pull at her with his front legs. When I intervene he tries to get around me and do it anyway.

Sorry a bit of vent, but what a disturbing situation?

 Quote: CJ Barrett

....The baby “sweet” talk from this child that would spark this dog was such a good indicator that this pup could no longer tolerate what was to follow. She is seven years old and needs to be taught a more mature way of interacting with this animal. Dad needs to manage this situation (complete separation from the child) until he has trained the dog to behave appropriately and then passed those skills onto his daughter. ... The OP went from no discipline to a level 10 e-collar correction, while the dog was acting in an extremely aggressive manner, in the presence of his child no less. He then chose to twist and turn a small portion of Mr. Frawley’s correction advice to condone this extremely “abusive” use of the e-collar tool. .... This dog has been set up for failure with a child as the bait no less. The only association that the dog can reasonably take away from something like this is that this child is something that he wants no part of, something to destroy.

Yes. This is hard to read, but yes. This is exactly what I (and others) tried, and failed, to get across.

Fear for the dog and the child is what triggered this new thread. I hope (we all hope, I imagine) that it will be read in time.

Barring any other major changes, I would always try going back to square one again with groundwork. Make it very clear to the dog who is in control and who calls the shots.

IMO, there are very few dogs out there that truly want to be alpha dogs. And most of these dogs are the serious working type, so pretty unlikely to be in a pet home. But there are many dogs that feel they are in the alpha position due to their owners actions and reactions.

Unless they have been trained differently, dogs react to situations in dog language, which includes biting and growling. The human then often reacts emotionally - "oh my word, my dog has turned". No, your dog does not know how to/has not been trained to deal with the situation, so they react in a manner normal to a dog.

But by this time, the owner has either over reacted to what has happened or has become a bit scared of the dog (because he growled and he now can't be trusted, etc). And this reaction adds to the dogs behavior - it becomes a vicious cycle. I think the owners reaction to as more or more to build the dogs aggression as anything else.

If they'd step way back and go back through groundwork and training the dog as to what is expected instead of getting emotional (for lack of a better term) about it and inadvertently feeding it they could quite possibly solve their issue.

But I really think by this point that most people need an experienced trainer to work with. It going to take a knowledge of dogs and dog language to get this sort of issue resolved.