Here is my second question re my dog Rocky. We live on a farm and hardly anyone ever comes and we rarely leave. So, on our recent trip to Florida to visit family we took Rocky with us. I have both a prong collar and an e-collar that I rotate and a leash so that I can hold him close to me.

Since he has never been around people I kept him away from anyone which wasn't hard on the way down since it was raining cats and dogs...he seemed to be the only dog who had to relieve himself. At one point we stopped in a city for something to eat and I took him to a wooded area and we walked until I was thoroughly soaked...I knew he had another 3 hours in the van, so instead of getting in the van we stood at the back of the restaurant under an eve about 30 feet away from people. I talked him through being calm when people came out and went to their vehicles. He did great after about 10 people, then we were approached by 2 men who asked me if they could pet him...I told them, "NO, he isn't good around people" and about that time he jumped up, hair standing on his neck and growled at them...they left without another word. I quickly got him calmed down and we had a few other people who wanted to pet him, but Rocky gave them the same response. I didn't reprimand him...I just calmed him down. AND I would not have let them pet him regardless of whether he was people friendly or not.

When we got to Florida he was fine with my parents bec he had met them before at our house. He would growl at everyone else and snarl at them, mainly when our children were outside. At one point I told someone that he wasn't good around people other than us and she told me that she works with dogs everyday and that they love her and she has never been bitten. She walked right up to him and he jumped up on her with his paws on her shoulder like he had known her forever...somehow my 8 yo dd put herself in between Rocky and the woman and at that point he snapped at the woman. She backed off and refused to go near him again.

My opinion is that he was being protective, but someone on here mentioned that it was not protection, it was a greater issue. I would love any input on how to "socialize" him. I DO NOT want people just coming up and petting him and I KNOW the dangers of any dog no matter how well trained or socialized they are biting.

I am not one to take unnecessary chances and I kept him with me and away from any other animals. I truly don't know what he would do if another dog got close to him, but there were several instances where I had to tell the owners of other dogs off-leash to get their dogs under control bec they kept coming close to us and he was becoming hard for me to handle. His actions are such that he acts like he wants to bite, he growls and snarls at them and he pulls me along with him (depending on the terrain - slippery, I go wherever he pulls me...on the road or dry grass, I am fine).

Thanks in advance for what I know will be helpful answers...

Be careful about soothing him. Remember that he doesn't understand your words, only your tone. Soothing could cause more confusion for him.

Check out the fear period video in the streaming video section, as well as the desensitizing threads on the forum. Most of the threads are about people who have problems with other dogs, but the same concept applies.

You might also want to consider the power of training dogs with food video. Lots of good stuff about socialization and counter conditioning in that one.

In the mean time, keep as much distance between him and people as he needs to feel comfortable. And whatever you do *don't* allow people to approach him directly or pet him!

After reading and learning a little more, if you still feel unsure about how to handle this problem get help from a qualified trainer or behaviorist.

I'm sure other people will pop in with some advice for you.

 Quote: Theresa Rutherford

he growls and snarls at them and he pulls me along with him (depending on the terrain - slippery, I go wherever he pulls me...on the road or dry grass, I am fine).

I would not allow my dog to pull me anywhere he wanted to go, especially if he was growling and snarling at another dog, but regardless, it is important that you are the one dictacting when and where you go...

Instead of trying to interpret why Rocky is giving his reactions, take note that he is reacting and focus on de-escalating rather than soothing. It sounds to me like anxiety, and he doesn't know how to handle the stimulation of unwanted attention (people or dogs crossing his invisible perimeter of safety). I don't think this is so much a socialization problem, as it is a coping problem. Rocky doesn't know how to cope with his increased arousal level (internal) triggered by unfamiliar stimulus (environment). He has an adolescent brain that is easily swamped with sensation. He is growling, snarling, barking and lunging because that is his way of testing threat level. They are also great signals for you to shift gears - not to pet him! but to move him away, give him an OB exercise, distract him, play with him: anything to take his fixed gaze off the object that is causing him to get over-excited.

I like the definition I got here that a well socialized dog is not necessarily a friendly dog. It is a dog that can take or leave social interaction because you, the handler, has given him good leadership on what to do next.

I might be wrong, but when Rocky is taking matters into his own paws, you are no longer the leader, and he is, literally, turning you into his pack by dragging you along.

Our experience over here with a big, sensitive, easily aroused 1 yr. old shepherdx is that a solid pre-emptive strike on our part - click/treat; Sit/Watch/Down; This Way; Look at That/Click/Treat, etc. is much easier to manage than a barking, snarling, lunging dog. I wave people away when they come in too close. Nobody pushes my boundaries on this. I won't let them.

 Quote: jenny arntzen

... I might be wrong, but when Rocky is taking matters into his own paws, you are no longer the leader, and he is, literally, turning you into his pack by dragging you along.

You are not wrong. IMO, he sees no pack leader between himself and the world and perceives that he has to assume the role.

This is a dog who would benefit hugely from pack groundwork and desensitizing, IMO. I don't know how others will respond, but if I had this (or any) dog pretty much isolated with only the immediately family, I'd make plans for regular little trips and regular brief visitors for the sole purpose of desensitizing.

If you haven't seen any thread about this, let us know and we can dig up a couple.

How have you trained basic ob and how is his?


eta
He is fortunate that you are exploring this. Too many owners would react by isolating him further and exacerbating the problem to the point of it becoming "reason for surrender"on a shelter intake form. Desensitizing is a win-win, IMO; it enhances your bond, increases his confidence, lowers his (and your) stress, and improves his basic ob.


Edited by Connie Sutherland (03/25/2011 08:25 PM)
Edit reason: eta

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

I don't know how others will respond, but if I had this (or any) dog pretty much isolated with only the immediately family, I'd make plans for regular little trips and regular brief visitors for the sole purpose of desensitizing.

I couldn't agree more. Unless Rocky is exposed to different settings, people, dogs etc. there will be no improvement. Obedience will be a big part of the picture, however; all the obedience in the world can fall apart if a dog is faced with a different scenario which he has not been trained in. Desensitizing will be the most important part of your plan.

Theresa, you don't need lots of people just (I'd recommend daily) exposure to different ones. Suggestions for where you might find some; at a local highschool, a gas station, post office, store, church, library, any place people visit on a fairly regular basis. You don't need tons of time either. I'd start at a distance that the person would have to yell for you to hear them and keep the exposure to maybe 5 minutes. Then slowly add time and move closer but only increase one at a time.

The desensitizing threads and viewing suggestions mentioned go into much more detail and will be very helpful.

A little more background would probably help here. He is 100% on recall and ALL his basic obedience commands. Thinking back, since I have trained him he has never refused to do any command I give him. Even when chasing our donkey (at the fence - addressed in an earlier post), when I call him to me, he immediately comes with not even a backward glance at her. I used the Basic Dog Obedience Video and have been truly impressed with what a dog can learn. Rocky is very similar to the GSD puppy in the video that is jumping and very high strung.

We just had him weighed and he is almost 100 pounds - I am not sure how that translates into the power he has when something gets his attention, but I only weigh 113 pounds. I don't have the power he has...that is the only reason he pulls me...at the beginning of a "problem", but then I am able to quickly get him under control.

 Quote: jenny arntzen

They are also great signals for you to shift gears - not to pet him! but to move him away, give him an OB exercise, distract him, play with him: anything to take his fixed gaze off the object that is causing him to get over-excited.

I understand about using only a few words. I stand by him and quietly and calmly say, "calm...calm......" with my hand on his head (kind of like a re-assurance that everything is fine) and I would re-direct and reward him for his "good" behavior. My husband says that I am "re-setting" him - kind of like an alarm clock.

I am Rocky's pack leader...there is no question about that. He really respects me and has a great relationship with me. He looks at me before he does anything as if to ask my permission. I have always been gentle with him using Ed Frawley's techniques. Everyone that we were around on our trip commented on how well he behaved for me and how easily I got him under control.

Now, as for taking him out...we live in a very rural area...due to fuel prices we don't go out much and we don't have any neighbors - the nearest place to take him is 20 miles away. We take him with us on walks through our woods and when I go out shopping, since it is still cool I take him with me, but he has to stay in his crate in the van. I was considering taking him to a city park that has a trail through the woods where only a few people walk, so due to the suggestion here, I will probably do that, but it would only be once a week at the most.

I haven't seen any threads about this subject and as you can tell I am very new to this forum. SO, any links to threads would be very much appreciated.

Thank you for the responses...keep them coming, they give me a lot to think about.

Why have a prong AND an E-collar for a dog that never, ever refuses a command?

 Quote: Theresa Rutherford

A little more background would probably help here. He is 100% on recall and ALL his basic obedience commands. Thinking back, since I have trained him he has never refused to do any command I give him. Even when chasing our donkey (at the fence - addressed in an earlier post), when I call him to me, he immediately comes with not even a backward glance at her. I used the Basic Dog Obedience Video and have been truly impressed with what a dog can learn. Rocky is very similar to the GSD puppy in the video that is jumping and very high strung.

 Quote:

During this time he wouldn't look at me, listen to me or pay any attention to the e-collar that I had on him. At one point I had it as high as it would go and held the button for 4 seconds with absolutely NO response from him (he was very hyped-up).

Oh. *This* is probably why.

Just to be safe that he won't get confused, or worse take it as approval, don't pet him while he's amped. Honestly, I wouldn't even talk to him while he's in that state of mind unless I was certain that I could use reliable obedience commands to bring him down.