I recently joined Leerburg and happy I did.

After all the tests and all the mumbo jumbo, my 16 month old male GSD ******HAS EPI****** (aside from ''heart murmur'' and allergies).

I started him on the Viokase-V last night, and notice a little improvement already when he was out of 4 AM...however, due to the pork in the Viokase-V, he's pulling at the tops of his feet (allergies to the pork which on a scale of 200-399, he's a 236 so on the lower end of the positive.) He will have to be maintained on this all his life. What would be a good product to use (holistic preferably, or not) to spray or use on the tops and between the pads? In addition, what type of life can Nikko have being an EPI, Heart Murmur and allergy dog? The way I see it is that his immune system is already compromised at such a young age, does he stand a chance at a GOOD life? I'm willing to go all out for him, but I want to be SURE he'll be happy.

He needs an amazing supplement that can't contain Kelp (he has allergy to kelp), loaded with B's, but we have to address the murmur which is a II out of VI as well, so a supplement which can address the heart, GI tract (I'm thinking he'll need a good pre biotic and probiotic), and one which is the BEST for an EPI dog. He is already on a probiotic which I am not terribly fond of called Vetri Science. One doctor mentioned Purina Forti Flora. I was thinking of asking his trainer for a very good enzyme and protiotic, but we all have out own opinions, so I need to see answers here on the forum.

In all honesty, what am I "actually" looking at in terms of the life span of my boy? Can he lead a normal life with the EPI, allergies and heart murmur? Can he still work, train, run and play soccer? Can he still compete in our clubs upcoming trial? Will stress from his work make him worse? He is a stop away from Personal Protection Dog as well, and I want him to be happy.

Also, I REALLY need a GOOD restricted single source protein diet which can't contain grain. I am aware that an EPI dog should have a grain free kibble with 12% less on the fat, and 4% less on the fiber, what I'm not sure about the protein and how high the protein can be without hurting him?

Natural Balance Limited diets look good, but I am seeing a lot of "potato protein's" in their formulas...he is fine with sweet potato, however, he has a borderline allergy to white potato...much of the Natural Balance Limited diets have "potato protein" so I'm not sure if that is the same thing.

I feel that being he is itching from the Viokase-V due to the pork, he may itch the same way with white potato...I have some calls in to find out but I'm not feeling so great about all of this.

Why did most of these issues surface at 14 months old?
Are these genetic issues or congenital? I'm wondering why as he was a very expensive dog, and I have no recourse. I won't return the dog, not a chance. We will deal with this as a family and get him well and back on track.

Suggestions, comments, feedback needed and most appreciated.

Holly, your dog has a lot of issues going on. There are lots of things to address, and I can only comment on a few that I would know a little bit about.

Are you looking at wanting to feed kibble only? From my understanding, you could do a home based diet with a lot more ease than trying to find a perfect kibble. JMO.
This way, you would be able to control all the factors you need to in his diet.

Raw feeding or doing a home cooked diet would likely be a very healthy consideration for you. Here is one great resource:
http://leerburg.com/9000.htm

There are lots of good probiotics out there, but I like to use a plain kefir by Lifeway.

What kinds of allergy testing have you done for this dog?

I am sorry that I do not know more about EPI or heart murmurs, but a qualified Vet should be able to answer all those questions for you, as to why it happened at 14 months and is it genetic etc.

I would contact your breeder and ask these questions of them about these issues you are having as well. If they are not helpful, I would start to question the ethics of their breeding practices. A high price paid for a dog, unfortunately does not necessarily mean you will have a healthy dog.


These health issues certainly are difficult to content with, and I am so sorry you are going through it all, and having just lost your female. Was she from the same breeder?
Hopefully some of the more knowledgeable members will chime in here too.

Dear Holly: I have recently looked into EPI when my cody was first sick. It said a dog with epi can live a normal life and train and be active. You first have to find the right combo of food and enzymes. It would benefit you greatly to look up a website on epi and get yourself educated. There is even an epi group that helps with the cost of medication. they order it as a group so each person doesn't have to pay such high prices. They buy it in bulk. You probably have already done this but I just thought i would suggest it. There is so much info there for you.
Have you considered a raw diet with that single protein? raw meat has natural enzymes. I hope you find what you are looking for. It is so hard when your pups are sick and you are trying to find a solution. I know, I am kinda going through that with my cody. He has vitamin b12 deficiency right now.

I love leerburg as well, it has been the best dog web site I have found.
sharon

I have a GSD with mild EPI (TLI of 3.1 - technically in the grey area, but she was symptomatic). She is also prone to other things...there are a lot of connection between EPI and other health problems IMHO.

Have you looked into getting raw beef pancreas? That would be step one in avoiding the pork allergy (why cause one problem to get rid of another?) Hare Today has it: http://hare-today.com/product_info.php?products_id=43

As for supplements, I use:

B-Naturals Digestion Blend: http://www.b-naturals.com/bertes-digestion-blend-1-lb-p-101?cPath=22_23_15
B-Naturals Immune Blend: http://www.b-naturals.com/bertes-immune-blend-1-lb-p-17?cPath=25
Plus, Vitamin E and Fish Oil. I give additional probiotics when needed (I can tell based on her farts lol)...no particular brand, just grab some at the health food store.

I am going to be very straightforward about the food. Forget the kibble and go raw. I spent to many years jumping from kibble to kibble and trying to find what was best. The answer was raw. My Grace needed to be on enzymes with kibble, but doesn't with raw...that tells me a lot.

And lastly, check out the Yahoo group for EPI:
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/k9-EPIGLOBAL/

Hope this helps a bit. Grace is now nine years old and keeps up with my 10 month old and nearly 5 year old (who is super high energy). Her only problems are not directly related to her EPI.

Holly,
I had an Airedale long ago with EPI, but he led a normal life and I even competed with him once the Vet and I figured out what his diagnosis was.

The pancreatic supplement wasn't cheap, but the dog stayed at normal weight with normal stool as long as he got it on a daily basis.

There's a good website about EPI that would be worth a look:
http://www.epi4dogs.com/

Hope that helps!

Hi Joyce, he sure does for a young boy that will be 17 months on the 10th. I am trying various kibbles, but none of them are good. I have just considered putting him back to either a cooked food, which I don't have time to do really, or possibly putting him back on raw. Seems as though he did much better while on raw bison. That way, I was always able to see what I was putting in it. The vet actually removed him due to what he said, was an "over growth" of bacteria in the gut. But this was from what I was told, due to EPI, and although his bloods were always good, there was always that 'grey' area of EPI, which the vet kept saying "could not be possible." Well, darn, now sure is. He always did best on raw, so thats the way I'm going to go.

I have heard of kefir, it was recommended to me by the doggie nutritionist. I will look into it, as she uses it on her two German Shepherds. I never bothered, but I did mention to her that I was not happy with the probiotic I have my dogs on...the younger one is OK with it, he's not.

In the way of allergy testing for Nikko, it was a huge broad spectrum test. All blood work, they don't believe in skin testing. I have not seen any issues with grass but nothing would surprise me at this point.

As far as Nikko's heart, he said its genetic...as far as the EPI, he said yes to that also. I just am concerned for those who purchased dogs from the same place. Hum...I wonder if they are having any issues.

I did in fact contact the breeder...he was useless to me, and I'd never recommend him. He was not helpful at all. He said I could return the dog (not a chance), and pay to ship the dog either to him back in Czech Republic, or to a friend of his in California (at MY expense)!!, and he would offer a pup for free, BUT I'd have to pay the shipping on that puppy to Newark. No, sorry...Nikko has lived here with me, trained with me every day for hours...countless hours, and we are bonded.

I don't care, he's staying regardless of the outcome. We don't treat our dogs as commodities, they are our family...if there is an issue, we'll deal with it. A dog is a life long commitment and we are in it for the long haul with him. Yes, its draining right now, but we gave our girl a chance and bought her extra time, I would only do the same for him, and in fact, for any dog I purchase in the future. I have a female now, and I do pray to god she is healthy...so far yes, but she just turned 9 months, and I am scared to death...lets just say I've become a tad gun shy...can't blame me.

It is hard, but we have each other...my husband is taking this very hard, but we'll get through it. Funny, most people know me and they always say "if I breed would you like a pup from us?" I get this all the time because they know how we are with our pets, and no one ever has to question the care and love they get. If anyone had Laurel, my girl, they would have not given her that chance and although her life was short, it was a good life with us as we tried and bent over backwards for her...

Laurel is not from the same breeder, she comes from Connecticut, Nikko comes from Czech Republic. My new black female is a Czech import but is both East and West German, Czech and a mix of Holland / Dutch...her dad is Bongo Vikar, and from what I am told, he tosses some very lovely pups.

AT my dog club they make fun of her, as she has a lot of "fluff" but she is starting to lose that...she is indeed a big girl and a super sweet personality. Nikko and her play and sleep together and I'm happy she is here. If I had more room, I'd have more dogs...it just goes with our love for them.

Thanks for the input you have been most kind to me here

 Quote: holly green

In the way of allergy testing for Nikko, it was a huge broad spectrum test. All blood work, they don't believe in skin testing.

Holly, did a regular vet tell you they didn't believe in skin testing or a dermotologist? Either way, you were given poor advice, imo...

This is a quote from a previous post titled "Diagnosing Allergies":

In addition, the RAST and ELISA (blood) tests cannot identify food allergies in dogs, and are not even very good (yet) at identifying airborne/environmental allergies in dogs.

In other words, if you have been told that a dog's food allergens could be identified via blood tests, you joined the gigantic list of owners (including me, until I started realizing that allergies were not a GP topic) who have been told that expensive non-fact.

"There is no evidence that blood tests are accurate for the diagnosis of food allergies. Veterinary dermatologists insist that there is no merit in these tests whatsoever in the diagnosis of food allergies. The only way to accurately diagnose food allergies is with a food trial as detailed above. While the intradermal skin testing is excellent for diagnosing atopy (inhalant allergies) it is ineffective for food allergies. While specialized blood tests can be used to help in the diagnosis of atopy, they have no benefit in diagnosing food allergies. In our review of all the current books and articles on veterinary dermatology and allergies, we could not find a single dermatologist that endorsed anything other than the food trial as an effective diagnostic aid. If you want to diagnose and treat food allergies you must do a food trial."

That's it in a nutshell from Doctors Foster & Smith at peteducation.com ... but believe me, this is not just one respected authority saying this. This is repeated in every authoritative source, from every current vet manual and book on canine allergies to every single vet-center website. The use of blood tests to ID food allergens for canine patients has to be one of the most amazing practices to continue, year after year after year, despite there being zero reinforcement for it in any authoritative source anywhere.

---

HI Sharon,

I actually am on the list you mention about EPI. Wow, the stories I hear, the success rates in many cases. It makes me hopeful. Everyone is amazingly nice and nice. I just ordered raw cow pancreas as Nikko is allergic to pork (really bad), and its raw, so I will have that in a day as I had it expressed to me. I'm willing to try just about anything right now, as yesterday I saw a change in him I did not like...Nikko is always bouncy, but after soccer he seemed tired and laid down...that is definitely NOT him. I suppose, like me with my Crohn's Disease, he was maybe not feeling up to par. I was told to keep him quiet, which is hard to do, as the dog always is on the go, wants to go to Schutzhund and train, and honestly I won't take that away from him...he needs exercise to some extent also due to his heart and as I once told the K9 handler, if Laurel dies here, right here as we are working...well, then she died doing what she loved best...she was much sicker than Nikko, as she had a myriad of issues which were just abominable...I could never believe that. The bad before she passed, she was climbing the A frame...unfortunately, she sugar dropped to a "1" and she passed on. I know she is at peace, yesterday was her 2nd month in heaven.
You had mentioned that the raw meat has enzymes...I used to feed Laurel green tripe. I hated the smell, but she loved it. It actually improved her gut too so I agree with you.
With Cody, as you planning to do B12 injections or any type of IV Vitamin infusion? I have heard both the bad and good on the IV vitamin therapy, but Nikko has already had one B injection and was great afterwards...that was in February I believe, and I think today I'm going to take him for vitamin therapy again. I wish the insurance would pay for it, but my pet policy does not cover anything holistic...I feel they should start.
I hope Cody does well. He looks like a sweetheart. Where do you live if you don't mind me asking? I am in NY, but there is a holistic vet here that does the vitamin infusion...have you researched any vets in your area that would be willing to do it? Its not cheap, around 900 for a three day infusion...they give you the option to stay and leave the dog which I wouldn't, or you can go back for three days...
Time to shut off our cable and cell phones and lower our monthly expenses especially if we go that route...keep in touch and good luck with Cody Thank you kindly for your input.

 Quote: holly green

The vet actually removed him due to what he said, was an "over growth" of bacteria in the gut. But this was from what I was told, due to EPI, and although his bloods were always good, there was always that 'grey' area of EPI, which the vet kept saying "could not be possible." Well, darn, now sure is. He always did best on raw, so thats the way I'm going to go.

I have heard of kefir, it was recommended to me by the doggie nutritionist. I will look into it, as she uses it on her two German Shepherds. I never bothered, but I did mention to her that I was not happy with the probiotic I have my dogs on...the younger one is OK with it, he's not.

Holly - Sounds like your dog had SIBO (small intestine bacterial overgrowth). This is not related to feeding raw, but is most definitely a secondary condition related to the EPI. Here is some brief, but excellent information:

http://dogaware.com/health/digestive.html#sibo

Grace also had SIBO (these were the random times throughout her life that symptoms would worsen and I had no idea why at first). She did eventually need long term antibiotics (Flagyl for about 2 months). It was at the same time that I switched her to a full time raw diet and in the past 5 years, we have never had a SIBO happen again. I am lucky that she does not need B-12 supplementation.

The addition of kefir or unflavored yogurt is always a good idea and I saw you mentioned tripe as well...stinky, but great for our dogs.

One last thought, Grace does best on ground raw meaty bones as compared to whole. Kind of a jump start on digestion

Here's to hoping it all works out - I know how frustrating it is, especially in the beginning stages!

Hi Melissa, funny, I just ordered from Hare Today, as I saw they were in PA, not far from NY. A 7 hour drive by car, but close enough. They seemed to be inspected and approved by the PA dept of AGR...have you been ordering from them for a while? I ordered about 70 ish lbs. of the raw pancreas and did an overnight. My vet is not up to date on all of this, so when in doubt I use the holistic vet. I use a few, but I have my reasons for doing that. I will let you know how I make out with the food!

As far as the supplements, you beat me to the punch again...I had already checked out the B naturals website last night as I was interested in the Cardio Pac, but they also had a lot of great supplements. At this point, I did a print out for the holistic vet to run it by him, as I don't want to introduce things too quickly, as then I won't know what is working, and whats not...its like with my daughter when we were trying to desensitize her to things as she is so allergic to a point where she wheezes and could die...we've come close. Her main issues are dairy. Its been a battle.

Currently I use Nu-Vet and Nu-Joint, but I am ALWAYS looking for something better. If its there, and the vet likes the combo, I'll get it. Again, I was told with EPI, less is more...start basic, and add.

I do give Omega 3,6,9 supplement to both my Shepherds...two a day which goes by weight, both are on probiotics which I am going to change shortly to another. I agree with you on the kibble...I had recently tried a kibble from Addiction Foods which looked like a great kibble with the only protein source being kangaroo, but Nikko got really sick from it...my pup seems to have a cast iron stomach, so I don't worry too much about her when it comes to what she can eat. I just have to watch her around the stove and counters and she looks for any crumbs, especially when she is tracking. Both of them have their noses to the ground at all times, yes his is a 70/30 with his nose being up in the air 70% of the time. How many mg's of E do you give your shepherds? I was told to watch out for too much A and K, but again, this is something designed for the vet.

I used to use, for Laurel, a product from Standard Process called K9 Immune Support which worked nicely for her, but every dog is different. I use their human line called Immuplex as I'm always compromised...

I belong to K9 EPIGLOBAL, I just joined and I have a slew of emails so I hope to get to all of them later on today or tonight...you have a lovely looking crew there in your photo! From our fur babes to yours, good luck with them, they all look so cute together