I'm curious about how and when people apply prong collar or e collar corrections with their dogs.

Do you use them?

If you use them, when do you add them in your training?


I have recently been reviewing a lot of the leerburg DVDs and the question came to mind. I understand that a lot has changed in dog training over the last decade, especialy on this forum with the popularity of Michael Ellis' method of training.

Another question I have is weather people believe in using "pack stucture" corrections. Are there some places where a correction is warranted even if a behavior has not been trained?

I'd would love to have a real discussion on this subject. Its a topic that is a little confusing if you are new to some of the ideas of marker training or transitioning from a more "old school" way of thinking about training.

 Quote: lauren jeffery

Another question I have is weather people believe in using "pack structure" corrections. Are there some places where a correction is warranted even if a behavior has not been trained?

In some cases, yes. For instance if I had a dog that tried to resource guard from me, they know pretty quick that that behavior was totally unacceptable. Period.

So Mara, do you also use corrections in you obedience training?

If you do, how do you know a correction is warranted?

I think it depends on your definition of corrections. I don't use physical corrections until the behavior is trained and understood by the dog - pretty much the proofing stage. I do use verbal corrections no provide feedback - "Nope" - not what I'm looking for.

I train under the idea that my dogs want to please me, want to work with me, want to figure out how to get rewarded. I just need to figure out what the best way is to communicate what I want. Under this premise, most issues that arise are handler error. So when something goes wrong, my dog isn't engaged, isn't interested in working with me, etc, I need to figure out what is wrong in my training foundation and fix that as opposed to physically correcting the dog.

The one exception would be a behavior that I want to extinguish. For instance Kipp had this charge and nip thing he did with cats when I first got him. I set him up with a prong on a long line to correct him the instant he started fixating on a cat.

Cool. Thanks for getting back to me.

Everything you say makes total sense.

If a dog knows the commands, I will use corrections. Of course, I prefer a verbal correction over a physical one. Like Mara, I want my dogs to want to work with me, not be forced.

Here are some examples of how I might use corrections:
-Walking on the prong collar, dog doesn't heel when instructed to, dog self-corrects or gets a correction (more rare)
-Dog loose with e-collar, dog blows off come command, dog gets a stim
-Dog is loose in the house, guests enter, dog jumps on guests/acts like a kangaroo, I give a firm NO, grab the dog by the collar and give him a sit command

Interesting that when trying to think of times I use physical corrections, I struggled. I am realizing that I use verbal corrections and re-direction a lot more often.

I think the most important thing with physical corrections is to be fair. Don't set your dog up to need a correction...like letting him out when the neighbor's dogs are out and saying 'come' and getting peeved when he doesn't (I swear I didn't do that today...well...anyhow lol).

Good topic, Lauren, questions very worthy of a discussion on a dog training forum IMO.

As a disclaimer, I consider myself by no means an “expert,” just an interested life-long dog lover.

The “pack structure” correction sounds very much like methods that Cesar Milan uses so effectively. A lifetime of experience with dogs allows Cesar to be very sensitive to subtle cues that a dog gives off that signals the onset of a negative behavior sequence. Cesar uses quick, physical “cues” or corrections in the form of a bump with his fingers or foot or leash to interrupt the sequence and influence the dog to make another selection of behaviors. Cesar has done an awful lot of good for a lot of dogs, and likely kept hundreds out of euthanasia over the years. Attempts to emulate many of his methods seems to keep the peace in our dogs around the house and yard. The human has to be the leader, period. I see Ed’s pack foundation strategies as very similar to Cesar’s methods. Maybe Ed will start a TV show on Nat Geo some day???

Most of my reading and experience has been with bird dogs, but I am always interested in anything dog, so here goes...

IMO, excessively strong and/or frequent physical corrections are akin to animal abuse. I do not agree with training by intimidation or fear. Unfortunately, the modern e-collar doesn't have an "idiot trainer detection device" that prevents misuse. That's probably the main reason the e-collar is illegal in some countries (e.g., Canada) and the prong collar is very much frowned up in others (England, for example). It would be very easy to ruin a dog by excessively pushing one little button a few too many times on that e-collar transmitter.

That said, some of the happiest, smartest, healthiest, most secure, best trained working dogs I have seen have been trained with methods that eventually used some type of minimal physical correction at the latter stages of a planned training sequence. To me, the key is always KNOWING that the dog knows the concept and has practiced the correct behavior in the past. Totally agree with those above who talked about setting your dog up for success.

Anyway, most professional bird dog trainers advocate the use of an e-collar. The best ones (IMO) go through a testing sequence to determine the lowest level of stimulation to which the dog will have a reaction. The trainers start at the lowest setting and tap the momentary button, closely watching the dog. No reaction? Move up one setting at a time, re-tapping at each setting until the dog blinks when the e-collar is tapped. Not yelps, not jumps, not twitches, BLINKS. This is the starting setting for e-collar work. The severity of correction is akin to a quick, light leash correction.

OK, so the lightest correction that can have an effect is established. The teaching phase begins (no e-collar - just regular collar on a long line) with numerous reps, marker training, various places, birds, distractions, and so on until the dog knows the behavior and demonstrates the behavior regularly. The e-collar is then "over-layed" with the long line and normal collar after the behavior has been established so that when the dog earns a "correction" he is receiving a simultaneous normal collar and e-collar stimulation. At this point, the dog is very accomplished in performing the behavior, and is 90-95% proficient in demonstrating the behavior in all settings. The dog is happy (tail high), enthusiastic, and loves to train because he's successful and he's having fun.

As one pro trainer puts it, the e-collar is then used to "achieve excellence" by applying momentary stimulation at the lowest level that will have an effect, precisely timed at the critical moment.

Probably the main reason the e-collar is used so much in bird dog training is the typical distance between the dog and the trainer (some trial dogs eventually work 1/2 to 3/4 mile from the trainer). The e-collar is viewed as an extension of the regular collar and check-cord. Once a dog has its’ place in the pack, responds to marker training, has a trusting relationship with his trainer, and has been trained to respond to e-collar stimulation, the e-collar can potentially be a lifesaving device in the field. The dog can be reliably recalled if nearing a highway or a cliff or a swift river. The dog can also be recalled if he takes off after a deer or other "non bird" game such as a bear, mountain lion, bobcat, skunk or a porcupine. The dog can be snake-avoidance trained very easily and effectively.

Sorry for the novel.

I too am interested, obviously, in the role of physical corrections in the “marker training” world. Good for you for bringing it up!!

Thanks guys. This clears a lot up for me.

Rob, bird dog training is cool. I attempted to do some whistle training with my dog a while back and failed miserably.

Right now I am taking my dog back through almost everything, and I have noticed that while some things are definitely getting better, there are other areas that I have lost reliability. Simple commands that I am one hudred and twenty percent certain she knows. Things like sitting when we approach a curb on a walk, that is something she has done since she was a puppy, and now she is slow to do it or doesnt do it at all.

I'm just being patient, not worried in the least about it. I just think its weird to see drastic improvement in some areas and have a backslide in others.

Lauren, that is one fine looking dog you have. Looks confident.

If you haven't (and you probably have), go back and re-read Ed's Theory of Corrections article. He's added alot of new stuff since the last time I read it (mostly positive motivation-related). I just think you can never be grounded in fundamentals enough...and if you are like me, you'll say "oh yeah, that's right" as you are reading.

 Quote: Lauren Jeffery

I'm just being patient, not worried in the least about it. I just think its weird to see drastic improvement in some areas and have a backslide in others.

Lauren, how old is your beast? Falcon is 2.5 and I'm seeing a bit of this as well.