The breeder was feeding Eukanuba, I switched him to Cal Naturals because I got the bag half off. I am not 'in love' with the brand, and am willing to switch to something else for equal or higher quality.
He is now 9 weeks, has been tested for all parasites but please don't ask me to list all the tests.. they make my head want to explode. I have not had blood tests done yet. He has been wormed on the puppy schedule, and I just gave him a wormer from the vet today (again in 2 weeks) for some round worm eggs he saw in a fecal slide.
His GI upset has already caused a rectal prolapse. He was physically checked by a vet for blockages or other possible causes, came out clean as a whistle, and is getting steroid cream applied to it three times a day from now until whenever. Vet says it may not go away on it's own, but didn't say anything about surgery. I'd like your opinions on that.
I just started him on probiotics today, and ordered bone meal per suggestion of a mal/high drive dog owner. She feeds prey model raw and is kind of mentoring me into feeding the pup raw. I'm anxious about it because I don't want to stunt him in any way.
He is getting NOTHING ELSE. No treats, no chews, nothing. He will eat his poop if he's hungry and I'm not there to physically remove him from it until I can clean it up.

On to family history - Sloan is a 1 year old sister from an identical breeding, and they share an aunt, Evee. Sloan's owners known Evee's owner and they both have experienced GI issues. Sloan was very difficult to put weight on as a puppy, and had to be supplemented. She's doing just fine now. She also had soupy stool for months after being shipped to them.
The breeder says it's common for Mals to have this issue until they're around 6 months/maybe older. He suggested I cut back the food and give probiotics and possibly go ahead and treat for Giardia regardless of test results. The pup was having firm, normal stool on Eukanuba and I saw it with my own eyes - until he had the splats and that was the end of any kind of form besides when it's coming out.
Another mal owner has said the same thing as the breeder.
Today it's nothing but brown water. There's not even any mush to it. He has free choice of water, and the only thing that's changed is the probiotic/wormer I gave him earlier this morning.

He's otherwise a very healthy, active, spunky puppy. No lethargy issues, no blood in stool, no mucus, no discharge, no nothing. If you didn't see the pools of poop in the front yard you'd never guess he's sick.

It's been suggested that I put him on a diet using Medi-Cal Gastro Puppy OR Eukanuba Low Residue (she specified the puppy formula but I cannot find it, and the label I can find says nothing about age group).

Obviously his GI tract is completely shot. I'm sure he has no gut flora at all, and this is getting very frustrating. I don't want his prolapse to get any worse. It's not bothering him for now, but it could be very painful later.

Does anyone have any suggestions, advice, experience, ANYTHING to help shed some light? Should I go back to Eukanuba? Should I switch him to raw and hope the bone meal/ground bone (he can't chew very well yet) helps? I put Shelby on a raw diet after she was having very soft stool and she's completely normal now, but she's also an adult.

As I was writing this, he had to poo and the pictures are related. First is from this morning, second is from just a few minutes ago. There is some form to the second poo, almost 10 hours later.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/coweatchicken/DSC_0558.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/coweatchicken/DSC_0559.jpg

I'm just at my wits end. Thank god it's not parvo.

I'm a bit confused because you say that it's nothing but brown water today, but neither of those photos look like "water" to me.

If you could possibly crop the photos and enlarge them? The fresher one looks to me like it might have some fibers in it, is he eating a lot of grass? You say that you are not around to remove him from the poop, is he left outside unattended for long periods to graze?

Obviously from the history, it sounds like it's possible that there might be some GI issues. However, if the breeder is saying that this is common for his puppies, perhaps he has coccidia on the property. It's very had to find on a fecal, as the cysts are shed intermittently and are very small.

You've had him for 2 weeks then? How long was he on the Eukanuba? How long was the switch over? How much do you feed him at once?

Has he been on metrozidazole for bacterial inflammation? What sort of probiotic is it?

DO NOT GIVE HIM BONE MEAL JUST TO FIRM HIS POOP.

Treat him for Giardia.
Deworm him, if he eats his poop you know he has worms.
Feed him boiled chicken and rice, a small quantity, 5 times a day.
DO NOT FEED HIM BONE MEAL.
The prolapse will likely self correct as he grows.
I'd be worried about a number of things, and I would NOT put this pup on a raw diet.

When it comes out, it was brown water. Obviously as it dried over 10 hours it found some kind of substance to itself. I didn't think to take a picture of it this morning

He is not eating grass or anything at all except for his kibble. I do not leave him outside unattended and even then he doesn't try to graze. I'm assuming the fibers you saw was the grass around it. He does have accidents when I'm at work because I use an ex-pen, and I will find evidence, but no poop occasionally. He's crated at night for 8 hours with a break in the middle and crated during the day on and off to get him accustomed to it. Unfortunately that's the best my camera will take. I can't get a higher res. to blow it up closer.

I'll ask the vet what he needs to do a coccidia test, but he may have already done it.

Why shouldn't I feed him bone meal?

He was on Eukanuba for 4 weeks.

There was no switch over. I immediately put him on the Cal Naturals. Obviously he's still in the adjustment period, but I would have thought I'd see some kind of change by now.
He's eating 1/2 cup per feeding, three times a day. He'd like to eat more, but if I let him he'd graze all day.

I'm currently boiling brown rice, and will be boiling chicken later. What about his nutrition? Is it really okay to feed a growing pup chicken and rice? I've been wanting to do it, but I can't get any real answer to that question.

Why would you not put him on a raw diet?

If it was actually brown water - there would be nothing left to photograph, so you're not at the worst point yet.

The fibers I'm referring to I think I see in the stool, where it is broken apart, but never mind. The poop is still somewhat formed.

The fact that there was no transition is definitely a part of it, the fact that he just got to you is a part of it, and the fact that he was positive for roundworms, and is known to eat his own poop (re-infecting) is part of it.

The chicken and rice diet is just to settle his stomach. I wouldn't be nearly as worried about that, as I would about overdosing him on PURE CALCIUM (bone meal).

You know how all the raw feeders on here are always talking about the muscle meat/bone ratio? And all that mumbo-jumbo about large breed puppy food and proper Cal:Phos ratios and proper growth rates? All about calcium. Bone meal is calcium. Quite frankly it really scares me that people are out there using it to firm up the stool of young pups, and recommending it to others!

You sound like a conscientious owner, and I'm glad you asked about it here. PLEASE DON'T GIVE YOUR 9 WEEK OLD PUPPY BONE MEAL!*

*Except if you are feeding a home cooked diet or raw diet with no bones and are very knowledgeable (much more so than myself), and have no access to other more appropriate forms of calcium.


eta - Generally it's not advised to switch to raw until you have good poops, as this is the primary way to judge the success of the diet.

"ordered bone meal per suggestion of a mal/high drive dog owner. "


Do NOT add bone meal to a balanced diet. Please don't use calcium just to firm up runny stool.

Using calcium just to firm up diarrhea (if I am reading this right) gives me the willies too.

There is a reason for the diarrhea. Fix the reason (plenty of good advice above, and Betty is a retired vet).

I too would not switch this dog to raw at this time. And I'm a long-time, extremely dedicated and enthusiastic raw feeder. With a dog already in GI distress, the last thing you want to do is switch to a diet that you use the poops to gauge several facets of. Also, I'd want the poops perfect first because I would want to be certain that there was no pathogen overload involved in this diarrhea.

And again, supplementing with calcium is for diets that for some reason have an unbalanced Ca:P ratio (like home-cooked boneless), and then, as Phaedra says, you first find out exactly what you're doing. (Calcium in the appropriate amount is provided in the commercial food, and in a raw diet, it's provided in the digestible RMBs.)

"I'm currently boiling brown rice, and will be boiling chicken later. What about his nutrition? Is it really okay to feed a growing pup chicken and rice? I've been wanting to do it, but I can't get any real answer to that question."

Yes, it's OK for the short term (the time that it should take to get his gut back to un-inflamed state). It's not OK for a long-term diet, because of the calcium lack. By "long term," I mean longer than a week. And if I was going to go longer than this with it and add calcium, first I would post here and get the exact amount needed. It would be simple with ground eggshell, so no need to order anything special. You don't plan to do indefinite home-cooked, right?

My primary concern right now would be to relieve the inflamed gut. I'd use very overcooked rice (like gruel) after a 12-hour fast (but plenty of water, baited if necessary), and I'd be watching carefully for signs of dehydration. (Dehydration from diarrhea or vomiting in a puppy is very dangerous.)

You can take Dr. Betty's advice to the bank. And when she says "small" meals, she means "small." You want to give this GI system a break.

I would save that chicken-poaching water and cool it down to body temp both to rehydrate the dog and to offer when the dog says he's hungry during the short fast and then the small meals period.

I'd keep posting back here with your results.

I'm glad you posted, Samantha.

Betty, what do you mean by small?

We're doing the fast tonight, since he ate around 5 pm and doesn't eat until 6:30-7 am. I've got all the rice and chicken ready to go, and was too lazy to dump the water out yet. Glad I didn't!

Is feeding breast meat alright, or should I go with dark meat? I've only got breast meat at the moment.

A tablespoon of diced up boiled white meat chicken and an equal amount of rice.
For water he can have ice cubes in a bowl all day and he can have the water from the chicken boiling. No huge amounts of water gulped down all at once. He can have some pumpkin too.
It is not normal to have watery stools. An occasional excited blow - out or loose stool from an unusual meal is normal. Stools like water to 6 mos of age, that is not ANY sort of normal.
When I see a blown out rear end I'm thinking of salmonella, coccidia, big time parasite load, recovering parvo, this sort of thing. Often the rectum has been so inflammed that it has formed an inflexible ring of scar, and his bowel is coming out thru that ring. It may self correct or it may require surgery. Does he strain when he poops? You need your vets help on this pup.
The intestine is nourished by the food going by, so feeding is essential for the bowel to heal. The food needs to be digestible, totally non-germy (no raw right now) and nutritious. Rest his bowel overnight, then begin bland, super digestible food. I'd be feeding white rice not brown.
We want to see if we can get him to make a "soft log" and see if he can pass a softly formed poop w/o further prolapse. After that, we will worry about the nutrition part.
Wishing your pup a nice formed pooter as his Easter present.....

Breast meat is good.

Sorry the little guy isn't feeling well. I suspect that it probably is just the quick switch that did it. Once a puppy has a tummy upset it can be hard to stop the cycle without a short fast and the bland diet, followed by a slow reintroduction to the normal food.

When my dog was sick a few weeks ago the vet told me that I should start out by giving just a few tablespoons of the bland food, wait a few hours and then another few tablespoons.

Hope he feels better soon!

FWIW, I'm feeding Canidae to my dog with intestinal issues. She's finally having pretty consistent normal poops and staying at a healthy weight (hard to keep weight on her)

But when she has flair ups (from eating something besides her kibble and the training treats that work for her) it very quickly leads to watery diarrhea and at times, bloody - her GI tract gets inflamed quickly.

I'll fast her, then I start back in with a couple tablespoons of overcooked white rice every couple hours. Then if she is fine for 12 hours on that, I'll start adding in some chicken and up the amounts to about 1/2 cup every few hours.

Once things are fairly solid for 24 hours I slowly start adding in her regular food. Like a tablespoon of kibble mixed in with that 1/2 cup of chicken and rice.

Interestingly enough, she had no issue at all when she got into The Honest Kitchen food I had rehydrating on the counter for another dog. I'd love to try switching her over to that when I can afford it.