Hi everyone! I am new here and I wanted to ask your opinion on my situation.

I have a 5yr old female spayed chocolate lab (Madison) and a 2 year old nuetered male mix, maybe beagle/lab or something similar (Truman).

We adopted my female about 2 years ago, knowing she had some aggression issues. She had been returned to the shelter a couple of times with the owners reporting problems. When we first got her she was very dog aggressive on walks, in the house, etc. We took her to a local trainer and got her an e-collar and got us some extensive training (not on commands, but on becoming the pack leader). After reading through the website I believe she is what you would classify as a "hard" dog. I am not sure if she is high drive (she is VERY stubborn), and I would love ideas to excersize her brain and body more. After training and use of the e-collar she is now an EXCELLENT dog. I can trust her and she is very well behaved and does not show dominant behavior or aggression towards people/dogs anymore. She is very obedient.

About a year later we adopted Truman he was about 8 months old, he is now about 1yr 10 months. In the begining he was great, but as he has gotten older he has become territorial. He goes crazy when people/dogs walk by the house or rings the dorbell or when on his walks and a dog approaches or we walk by a fence where a dog is contained. Recently he escaped and attacked a dog walking down the street. I wish I had been more attentive to these changes in his behavior and stopped it sooner. It is now to the point where I fear letting him out when I let people in the house. I don't know if he is a "soft" dog or a "hard" dog (i.e. which types of corrections to use). It seems that maybe he used to be a soft dog, but as he ages and his territorial aggression becomes more pronounced I am starting to think he may be a hard dog). I believe he is a high drive dog as he loves to play games like "go find your ball/daddy... etc" hide-n-seek and fetch.

I will consult my trainer today and in the meantime we have begun using the following techniques (adjusted from techniques used with Madison during her training with a professional). But I wanted another opinion and I haven't found another well respected trainer in my area.

Here is my plan for retraining his territorial behavior:
Starting with the doorbell/letting people in the house:
When the doorbell rings I correct him with stimulation and no vocal command (should I use a command, if so when should I introduce it? immediatly? or when he begins to understand not to bark?). Then after the correction (if needed) I take his leash and lead him to his kennel (I am also doing this with Madison even though she does not bark, I would like them to not be in the room while I am letting someone in the house) while saying "go to your kennel". Then I let the person in, wait a few minutes and let the dogs out of the kennel.

Does this sound like a good plan? I like the idea of having my dogs not greeting people when they come in, as some people may be afraid of them and this should be my job, not thiers. I also like the idea of being able to put them away for a moment if some one is just stopping by or dropping something off.

For people walking by I will simply stimulate when he barks to distract, I will do this with him both inside and outside the house and on walks. But I will not attempt walks until he has the issues around/on the property worked out as he tends to be even more alert/on guard when on walks.

I understand that Truman must have a dominance issue, as this behavior is indicating. I just didn't really notice it until it got this bad, since when he was younger there was no issue. I have taken away all toys (I used to leave them out, as this was not an issue for my older dog). They also are not allowed on furniture, or the bed (although they do sleep in the room, but on the floor). I also try not to let them go out doors/up stairs first, although, I admit I am not 100% on this, sometimes I just forget. They do not eat from the table and they always get fed after we eat.

Also, is it ok to let my dogs hump each other? They tend to "play fight" and during this time they sometimes try to hump each other. I know they cannot hump me or my husband (and they don't) but is it ok for them to hump each other?

Any advice for me? all advice/criticisms welcome. I really want to help my dog and make sure he lives a happy life.

I'm not sure if I understand why you would correct him for barking at the door when he has no way of knowing NOT to bark at it? Does he know "quiet" yet? I would teach that first.

I do not let my dog hump...luckily we bit that in the but early and if he tries it (we have a husky he plays off leash with that EVERYBODY humps) he knows "off"

I'm not an expert, and others will chime in who know more than I do, but I will offer this: you can't expect the techniques that helped your first dog adjust to life in your home to work with your second dog. They are two different dogs, different breeds, different ages, and they have different histories.

Please don't correct your dog if he doesn't understand what you want in the first place. There are plenty of examples on this forum of the mis-use of an e-collar exacerbating the problem it is being used to fix. Please look up the information on this site about building pack structure and the protocol for bringing a new dog into a home when there is a dog already living there.

In the meantime, keep your dogs separate. Are they crate trained? That would be the first place I would start.

I also have no idea why you are thinking of correcting this dog when you have taught him no alternate behavior.

I also say no humping. This is a display of dominance: you know that, right? You are the boss ... not the humper. Separate them if you are not yet able to tell them with a simple "off" to stop.

You have crates, right?

You clearly say at the end that all advice and criticism is welcome, so please take it in the spirit intended: I think the e-collar plan as outlined is beyond terrible.

There's so much here --- Truman doesn't sound like he has a "dominance aggression issue" to me.

" I also like the idea of being able to put them away for a moment if some one is just stopping by or dropping something off. " Then just do it. Don't open the door until the dogs are put up or on leashes that you hold, depending on where you are in teaching the doorbell behavior that you need to start teaching.

Someone seems to have told you or taught you that training = correcting. I'm sorry that this has happened to you; there are better ways to train.

Have you searched this board for the many threads on teaching doorbell behavior, including simply removing the dog if necessary when someone is going to come in?

Also, there are many detailed threads on desensitizing the reactive dog.


eta

I see Jenny posted while I was typing, so there's some duplication. Sorry.

He does know quiet and off, and he does respond to both of those commands. 99% of the time the female humps the male, and she also responds to off. I was just curious if you felt this was ok for them. When she is hummping her I always tellher off if I am around. Niether of them hump me or my husband just the other dog occasionally. They are crated while we are away.

How is charging barking (possibly attacking if not leashed/fenced) not a dominance issue? everything I read says that this is territorial dominance? and that I need to further my role as pack leader. Basically, what was working before (when he was a pup) is not working now.

Together the dogs are fine - I don't need to reintroduce him (I went through an extensive intorduction phase when we first got him over a year ago), or crate them. What is happening here seems to be that as he is getting older he is becoming territorial. He hasn't always been like this and he doesn't show agression in any area other than what he feels is "his" territory.

I am familiar with pack structure, and I am trying my best, and he is very obedient in other instances.

I will look through the threads on desensitizing the reactive dog.

Thanks for your help, any tips on how to help him are appreciated. I understand there are several "schools of thought" on dog training and am simply trying to find what works best for my dog.

Any critisicm is appreciated, especially (maybe only) if its helpful and constructive!

The humping:

Allowing overt dominance among your dogs is you giving up the leadership role (the who shows dominance and when role).

eta: That's good that you don't allow it.



Loads of terminology (territorial, dominant, hard, soft) are words that can bury what's going on if we get lost in definitions.

On walks, the dog who is barking and charging -- we don't know that he's not fear-aggressive. Do you? "he tends to be even more alert/on guard when on walks."

Because we don't know, and particularly because we have no common ground for terms, we can fall back on what we know will work, pretty much no matter what.

Doorbell procedure means I teach the dogs to DO when the doorbell rings. Maybe it's sit, or place, or whatever.

Meanwhile I calm the entire door ruckus by removing the dog. Doorbell work for me is done with planned help and scenarios.

Reactivity can be toned way down with calm desensitizing, bulletproof basic ob (if the dog had this, for example, and I don't mean he should yet, then you would say sit when the doorbell rang and he would sit), and focus on you.

This leads to: Are you familiar with marker training? What kind of basic ob did/do you use?



eta
I re-read the O.P. and really think there's a lot for you in threads that you find using desensitize and desensitizing as search terms.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (05/09/2011 12:36 PM)
Edit reason: 2 etas

"When she is hummping her I always tellher off if I am around. .... They are crated while we are away."

Perfect!




" I understand there are several "schools of thought" on dog training and am simply trying to find what works best for my dog."

Also perfect.

Connie, excellent response thanks for the help! I will be more vigilant with stopping the humping. I stop them if I am in the room, but occasionally I do let them out to play for 15 or 20 min. at times during the day, or I may be outside in the from yard working while they are indoors.

I don't know how to tell if he is fear aggressive or not. That is probably my main problem. How do I tell? He is very fearful when a he meets a new person. He wags his tail but he cowers and crawls around on his belly or immediatly lays down or (although less common) he runs. Could this type of fear lead to territorial aggression, or is that simply a "pack leader" problem (as in I am not the pack leader). This is so confusing, lol how do I tell what type of dog I have?

I want his doorbell procedure to be to go to his kennel (he already knows this command) and stay until I release him (he also knows this command- although he is not as reliable it seems he gets excitable as soon as his kennel door is opened, even if he was calm a moment before). His kennel is in a room in the back of the house (farthest away from the door). I eventually want him to go to his kennel and not have me need to go close it to keep him contained. I want the same thing for Madison, even though she shows no territorial dominance, she also knows the same commands and is more reliable with her stay when the kennel door is opened.

I am not sure what type of basic obedience I used (not sure the name of it). Basically for sit, stay down, etc it was persistance (we always used 1, 2 follow through, assisting the dog if needed) and praise (yay! you sat). Release was have the dog sit, then say wait, take one step (gradually increase this), come back and release then treat. I hope that gives you some type of idea of basic training.

He is very reliable with sit, stay, down in any instance EXCEPT when people or dogs are appraoching/walking around the house or on his routine walking path. For instance on trips to a friends house or to our private land or to the dreaded dog park (I go at 6am when there are few or no other dogs) he is perfect.

Nicole,

It can be hard to tell the difference. But alot of fear aggressive dogs do display in the way you are describing. Hackles, lunging, snarling etc etc.

So are you saying that at the dog park he is fine with other dogs?
or does he act fearful towards them like he does with new people?

"He is very fearful when a he meets a new person. He wags his tail but he cowers and crawls around on his belly or immediatly lays down or (although less common) he runs."


This is not a dominant-aggressive dog. Now that it's typed out like this, it's always easier to see what we've missed. (Many many people start with "My dog is dominant." Most dogs are not. We generally start with statistics in mind and try to find out what's really happening.)

This dog needs desensitizing work, he needs confidence-building basic ob work, and he needs not to be corrected in the way that was tentatively proposed.

The pack leader issue: He needs you to be his rock. YOU will keep people from towering over him, accosting or forcing themselves on him, etc.

About the basic ob: "He is very reliable with sit, stay, down in any instance EXCEPT when people or dogs are appraoching/walking around the house or on his routine walking path."

This means "He's fine except under distraction." Meaning he's not fine, because when do you need this basic ob most?

So again, and I swear I am not trying to bore you to death, but if you read up on desensitizing (and desensitize), you are going to find a ton relating to this reactive dog.

Also, marker training will be your best friend for life. BFF. Tons of free video clips on the LB site (look at the Video on Demand part and check out Michael Ellis!).