I have 3GSD's my male and female are from the same litter one is the mom. The Mom is 3yrs old and the pup are now 15 months. My problem is the female pup has been snapping at people when we are out walking. Some times people will just approach us and give her alot of attention right away. If they ignore her until she approaches them she's alright. I know It's not fear as she never shys away and always stands her ground. I can tell by her body language as she always raises her lip slightly and stare's right at them. I tell strangers to leave her alone until she's ready but people are stupid. I noticed she displays the same behavior with the other dogs when they play or try to take her toys. She is very possive of her food also. Not with our family as my 5 yr. old grandaughter can reach in her bowl or take a toy out of her mouth on command. Is this a pack thing with the other dogs and a form of protection when were out alone. I have taken her to the park and her interaction with children is amazing. She is always watching out not to get ahead or behind when they run, She'll lay down and let them pet her. Only on one occasion did she sneer at a little girl. I gave her a correction and told the little girl not to bother with her. Being the submissive dog I'm not sure what this means. I read andrea's problem and hope I can get some of that good advice

Hi Nancy,
I'm a little confused. Everything you are saying points to a dominant dog. Why is it that you think she is submissive? Do you mean that she is subordinate in the pack order? At the bottom of the pecking order? If she were, then she would yield the good stuff like toys to the other dogs without a fight, so you see, I'm a bit confused.
Also, when showing aggression toward people, describe more about her body language. What is her head doing? Her ears? Her tail? Do you see any hackles? Does she crouch or stand erect? What else can you tell us?
Lastly, how much obedience does she have on her? Do you work her regularly? Also, you've described how you react to the people, but how do you respond toward HER when she displays aggression?

Hello All:
Nancy, also tell us how much bitework and what kind of training and at what age did you expose this dog to this kind of training (Nancy stated in a previous post that a trainer did some bitwork with her dogs). I agree you need to describe in detail more of the body language of the dog. Also, what about her nerves and what kind of socialization has she had. When you said you gave her a correction, what kind and at what level and how does she respond/recover from these corrections? What kind of lines does she come from? In the interium, I would make sure this dog is kenneled and has a "0%" chance of getting off your property or out of your yard. I would not take her to a dog park and I would not take her on a walk without a leash. You also mentioned that some people just walk up to the dog and try to pet her, etc. I agree this is stupid for people to do, but it's your dog and you have to be #1 smarter than the dog (and the people she encounters) and #2 you are liable if your dog bites someone. As a dog owner, it's "your" responsibility to make sure your dog is safe from people/other dogs. You should be the one controlling the the socialization with your dog, not the dog and not other people. If you see Joe the neighbor from down the street and he wants to shoot the breeze for awhile, before he gets within normal conversational distance, place "spot" in a sit or down stay and say "Joe please stay away from spot, she is on the sharp side so don't pet her, etc." There are a lot of things you can do to have her socialized with people (visitors giving her treats etc) but I would not do this until you have the problem identified first, then under very safe and controlled situations you can begin the other socialization excerises. A word of caution, you said she is good with your family, but you let your grand daughter take food or toys out of her bowl/mouth. I guarantee if you continue to let that happen your grand daughter is going to get hurt. First you need to indentify and restructure the pack, if you (or your husband) is the ALPHA, you take the alpha role in the relationship. You feed, groom, bath, give and take toys, etc. Don't put that kind of responsibility on someone (especially a child) who isn't capable of defending themselves against a year and a half old 75 lbs strong willed, dominate/sharp or weak nerved dog. Remember, there are two type of dog handlers, those who have been bite and those who are going to get bite.
Regards,
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Brandon

Hello:
I was reading and re-reading this post and something was nagging at me and it didn't click earlier. I am going to go out on a limb and I hope I'm not stepping on anyones toes, if so, I'm going to apologize ahead of time, so here it goes. I am starting to see some major red flags and I think you are going to have some BIG problems down the road. After looking at your post in both categories (Protection Training for Adults & Shy/Fear Biters) there are a couple of things that raise a few concerns/questions.
Q1. You said you're new to dog training/dogs. But you can tell that your dog is very confident and not shy.
A1. Good for you for seeking advice from those with more experience. Does this mean you can also read your dog and tell if he/she is in prey, fight or defense or is showing fear or avoidance. If you can, then I commend you and I wish you can tell me how to improve on my aspect of reading dogs. I'm not an expert, but I've been around working dogs for about a dozen years and it takes me some time to try and "read" a dog, and I'm not always right.
Q2. You had a professional trainer come and work your dogs (bite work) but only 3 times in the last year.
A2. Was this just "testing" or was he/she working your dogs in prey or defense? What were his/her credentials to work a dog in bite work, did you check any references, etc? Since you are paying good $$ for training, I would think that "most" trainers would want to take you to a certain level of training so they can get paid (ie. Level 1=home OB, Level 2=Off Lead OB, Level 3=CGC/CD level training, Level 4=Basic Bitework, etc).
Q3. You said he had something like "other agendas or was preoccupied or reluctant in some aspects."
A3. If you and your trainer aren't clicking and you don't know if he is working your dog(s) properly, you need to find another trainer whose methods are safe/humane and who is able to get the needed/desired results and to teach you how to train/handle your dog(s).
Q4. You said you weren't close to any training clubs.
A4. Go to either the Schutzhund USA or DVG websites (as well as sites for Ring/Mondio) or whatever type of training that suits you. I think there is at least one club per state and if you're lucky, you might have a couple of different clubs within a couple hours driving distance. Or maybe one of the people here on this list is near you and they could help you or direct you to a person that can help you out, it never hurts to ask? (not endorse or solicit a trainer or business but more like, "hey so and so is giving a seminar in Indiana next month" (that type of thing. I think Ed also has a place on the websites about seminars and such (that is what I was referring to).
Q5. You said during the winter months, you had to stop/suspend training due to the weather and you live in the city (people/kids) etc.
A5. I don't know where you are located, but I was born and raise in between Chinatown and Little Italy (New York), probably the most populous area in the USA (8 million people and 5 million pets on Manhanttan alone). I love my dog (all of them since I was a kid) but I don't want to smell dog shit/piss in the house all day. So
I had to walk my dog 3-4 times a day, rain, snow, sleet, etc. A 10 minute walk (to go potty) can very easily turn into a 10-15 minute training session (sit, down, heel, speak, stay). Most trainers say short frequent training sessions are better than long ones.
Q6. You said some of your local police are going to come and watch you train or let you partake in their training?
A6. Maybe Kevin or DFrost or someone can answer this question better than me. On my dept, handlers are the only ones who are allowed at training. Even spouses/girlfriends/kids can't come to training. Not even civillian members of the dept (dispatchers/booking clerks, etc) are not allowed. We view this as a tactical exercises and training applications and these are closed to the public. Even handlers from adjacent agencies have to prior permission if they want to watch/attend training. Most cops are great at being cops, but aren't the best "trainers/handlers" out there. In closing, I would reorganize your pack structure and once again, don't let your grand daughter or any kids be around this dog (or taking food toys from the dog) without "strict" supervision (ie. check cord). I think I am on base, but if I am wrong or left out any ideas please let me know, I hope I helped.
Just my $.02,
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Brandon

Wow you guys have given me alot to think about I'm going to print out your replys for reference. Thats why I wanted to get onto this discussion board. I never thought of Naka as being a Alpha. She usually takes dicipline from Belle'Amie' her mom quite well but if she is Alpha I may be in for trouble. I understand what you are warning me about as far as her becoming a biter so I've stopped all bite work with Naka. I would like to gear her more for tracking because of her confidence. She'll go anywhere and does not display fear but seems to approach new situations slowly like she's studying the best way to proceed or who she wants to make friends with. She very seldom hackles the only warning she seems to give is raising the corner of her mouth about 3 or 4 times before she snaps. I never allow lmy granddaughter to interact with any of the dogs unless I'm right there but I do allow the interaction so they will never see children as a threat. I feel the need to continue with this practice under extreme supervision until they are at least 3 yrs old. Naka is real sensitive to people who have cuts or sores. I have watched her smell, lick, and seek out small cuts, burns, and on one occasion a preoccupation with a family member who had a fungus on thier feet. The 3 are very social as I run them almost every day while I ride my bike. Believe me at 45 years old I'm in good shape but........... I stop and talk to my neighbors and allow them to interact with strangers unless I see warning signs. They are trained to lay down and wait while I visit some people are very intimitated by German Shepherds. I'm not sure if my correction is approperiate but this is what I do. When any of them used to display aggression or jump up I would say NO If they continue I took them down and layed on them until they quit strugglling. I slowly stood up until they layed relaxed on their own. I let them up allowed them to sit and before we continued I gave them praise for behaving. This seems to have done the trick because now if they get out of line all I do is push them down and they stay. They don't know thier 92 lbs and could get over on me...maybe.
I still want to reread your replys and yes I do need guidence. I'm sure you have some idea on how many hrs. I put into teaching them to follow me, turn left, stop and sit, to stay close so thier bodies never lose contact with my left leg all on comand. They will run and stop immeadiatly when I stop. When I call frount they return and sit facing me. This is really cool when all three do it at the same time. I get a real thrill when they all of a sudden "get it" and do it just to please. I have trained them with very little harsh corrections but geared them more for praise. I never hit them or threatened them but I do follow through with verbal dicipline until they obey. My dream is to attend Tom Rose's training school someday. Keep talking to me with your ideas and advice. I can take the criticism and won't get my feelings hurt I know I'm learning. I will look into training clubs and am willing to drive anywhere to learn or work my dogs. I also have contacted someone who is willing to teach me to harness and work them for sled pulling. I'll wait and go easy as I'm concerned about hip damage. I'm just amazed at thier versitality and willingness to perform.

Nancy:
Hello, and I'm glad I didn't scare you off and I am also glad that you responded. Check Ed site (the training/discussion area). Are you aware that you have a "pack" structure going on with your dogs? Look it up, it has to deal with dogs who are looking to other dogs (primarily) for socialization, interaction and discipline, etc. OK now for some (more) bad news, when you said (described) putting your dogs down and laying on top of them to get them to listen. I think you are describing a form of an Alpha Roll. If you are, PLEASE READ WHAT ED SAYS ABOUT ALPHA ROLLING DOGS. You should "NOT" attempt this (as a novice) and this should not be attempted unless the dog is muzzled, this is very dangerous. How did you learn how to do this anyway? First thing I would do is kennel the dogs, I am a big advocate of kenneling dogs seperatly and limit their interaction with each other. It is good for them to get socialization, training, bonding, etc. I don't mean putting them in a kennel and forgetting about them. But the dog(s) should depend on you for food, water, grooming, playing, going out for a walk, running around the yard, relaxing, playing with their toys, etc. You dictate when, where, what and how much, not the dog(s), not the hubby, not the neighbor, not the grand kids, not the paperboy, etc. Next, I would seek out "A REPUTABLE PROFESSIONAL TRAINER" to evaluate your dogs and I would start a very structured OB program. About 7-8 years ago, I went to the Tom Rose school for a (weekend) seminar it was great and I learned a lot. While you are waiting to go to his (or another school) get into a formal OB program and read, read, read and get some of Ed's video's to help you along. I was told once in a tracking seminar (by a pretty well known trainer/handler) that for a dog to maintain a level of profiency for service work, a dog should be tracked about 300 days a year during his introduction/training/proofing stages. You also mention that you want to get into sled pulling with your dog(s)? I don't know, I'm sure that the GSD can do that kind of work, but why put undue strain on their hips? If you want a dog to go hunting with, get a hunting dog, if you want a dog to sled work, get a sled dog (husky type), if you want a dog to go swimming and do retriever type of activities, get a retriever. I'm sure you are genuinely trying to take the best care of your dogs and get them the best training possible and you should be commended for that, but don't try to re-invent the (dog) wheel. Learn as much as you can and train your dog(s) to the best of your abilities, but make sure you aren't biting off more than you can chew ok? It will take you a lot of time and effort (and $$) to train your dogs, you will love it and so will they. To give you an example, just because you like classical music, doesn't mean you can drop $5K down on a piano and after taking a 30 day intro to music course and expect to be playing at Carnagie Hall, right?
Maybe others on this board with more experience can also offer some advice, like I said I'm not an expert, but I've been around long enough and have more than my fair share of bites and scars from making stupid mistakes and poor decisions on my quest to learn how to train dogs. I have learned that you have to train smarter not harder. I don't think I'm way off base, or maybe I'm reading into this a little to much, but it is hard enough for an experienced handler to maintain and train a multiple dog household so it is going to be that much harder for a novice. I wish you well in your training endeavors and do keep me posted.
Regards,
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Brandon

I think BC is basically on track here; I can't think of anything to add. You do have a pack dynamic going on that doesn't seem too clear to you (no offense). Maybe spending more one on one time with each dog would be a good idea, rather than taking them all out together. I realize that they all need daily exercise, and most people don't have the time to exercise three dogs individually, but you could set up a rotation system of sorts, perhaps.

I'm not one of the "experts" here, but I do agree with most of what BC has told you.

We have had our rescued dog for 2.5 months now. I posted him under "snapper". What I thought was a fear biter is probably an aggressive dog. He was just going through some big changes having lost a family twice in a month before he came to us. He is still adjusting and needs a lot of TLC for separation anxiety but who can blame him.

Our dog acts almost the same way you described your dog. But I noticed that he is prone to snap when he is on a leash and people come up to him to pet him. I keep him on a very short leash when we are in public because I can't control what people will do. Sometimes they come from behind us, I don't even notice and just about get a heart attack when I finally realize they are sneaking up to pet him. How stupid is that. I don't want anyone to get bitten. He never bit anyone but it does not mean he never will. If they come from the front and I don't have a treat, I just tell them to not touch him or just let him sniff the hand. If I have a treat, I give it to people to give it to him. I am talking a very special kind of treat that he loves more than anything. I never ever give it for any reason; it is only for strangers (and the groomer and the vet) to feed him. After that he will let them pat his head for a few seconds.
He is very curious and will come to sniff out anything and anyone. I do not think anymore that he is afraid. Sure he is careful in new situations. When he is off leash, he always tries to evade the touching if he does not trust the stranger. He never snapped at anyone when he can get away, and he will always back out first. But because he is so unreliable, I have to be always on guard (I wish I had more eyes). He is very selective and I have not been able to figure out what makes the difference between one person whom he lets touch him, and the other he won't. But I know for sure that those who stare at him are enemies, and also those who shake their hands in front of his nose when they say cute doggie come here will get a snap for sure.
Eventually he made friends with people that he originally snapped at.

It is much easier to watch the behavior when I have only one dog. I was told that in his original family he was running around with other dogs on the farm. They did not socialize him with people. I can see how he loves all animals, he must have been looking for guidance from another dog, if he was not the leader. With people around he would have turned out to be much more social. With your 3 dogs, she is probably looking for her mother like you said, as the leader and may try to change the pack order.

You will have to look for a pattern if there is one to see what makes her snap, no pun intended, and go from there. Once you know what it is it will be easier to prevent or treat. Every book and every article I read says I should get a good behaviorist asap and that is what we will do next. Perhaps that is what you should do as well. Good luck.

as110,

If you want to continue taking this dog out in public, considering how hard it is to keep idiots from trying to pet your dog without asking first, you better seriously think about putting a muzzle on the dog. Someone will eventually get bitten and believe me, I'm no lawyer but I strongly suspect that the fact that they did not ask if they could pet your dog will likely be meaningless in the lawsuit.

as110,
It sounds to me, from your description, like your dog IS afraid. That he snaps when on lead tells me that he probably feels confined and like he cannot go into avoidance, therefore making it neccessary, in his mind, to defend himself. That he will avoid being touched when off leash is basically avoidance, and he can choose to do so because he is not confined by the leash, in other words, he has an escape route. His background tells me that he is probably very "doggy" and not handler oriented.

I'm also curious if you have considered that you might be "telegraphing" your anxiety down the leash? That you keep him on a short leash makes me wonder, is it also a tight leash, especially in "social" situations? You do know that tightening the leash sends certain signals to the dog?

Lastly, I don't think you should be taking this dog out in public. It's too uncontrollable. If you want to work on teaching him to accept attention from strangers, you need to do so in a controlled environment with a trainer who is knowledgeable and experienced in this sort of thing. Taking him out in public at this point is risky, and I would be so nervous if I were you, that I would certainly be telegraphing my anxiety to the dog. Not a very confident picture to be showing the dog. At least in a controlled environment, just speaking for myself, I could relax and be a more confident leader....
Just some thoughts.