As I have posted previously, and some of you know, I decided just over a year ago to rehome a Boerboel pup from the litter our female came from, who had been given up by the original owners when their marriage broke down, I don't want to bore the arse off you all by rehashing old posts so I will try and keep to the facts.

I have 3 Boerboels - Sugar was the original BB pup, now 2 years old, that we added to our 2 English Pointers, followed by Harry, her half brother, now 18 months, and last April, after a whopping 4 homes in as many weeks in an attempt to rehome him by the breeder, I rightly or wrongly took the decision, after a lot of heart versus head discussions with the breeder that enough was enough and brought Kaiser home; this period of to-ing and fro-ing for him was further compounded by me losing my home to my ex husband, and having to move into a much smaller house with my daughter and the five dogs - my son was forced to find digs because finances now dictated a two bed house was all I could afford.

Enough of the sob story... At the time, I was given some very straight advice by other Boerboel people, and some of you Leerburg people about what lay ahead with 2 males, (I don't include my male pointer in this as he is more like a one toed sloth, very laid back and no threat) regarding dominance issues, well, you were right, shortly before we moved, I dropped an empty milk carton on the way to the dustbin, the youngest BB picked it up to play with it, the other male approached and a fight ensued, they were both younger and lighter then and I broke it up quickly, lesson #1 learned, no high value toys or treats, then a few nights at the new house, they passed each other in the doorway, it kicked off again, this time my daughter and me broke it up, no harm done and lesson #2 learned, Harry in a crate in the kitchen, not allowed in the sitting room anymore, keep them separate at feeding time, don't leave them alone in the garden, always supervised.

I bought 2 e-collars, one for each male, prong collars for all the BB's and wire basket muzzles after the males got to it on a walk, and up until now, they have been managed with vigilance, separation and almost obsessional avoidance of people and other dogs - mostly because Harry is unpredictable with other dogs and ( I think) fearful of people, I imagine due to my paranoia that he is going to flip out, he will bark furiously at people coming to the house and has charged people out on the fields off lead, so now he is walked on the lead, muzzled and only let off with my finger hovering over the e-collar remote whilst constantly scanning for people with/without dogs.

Today, things reached new heights, when I stupidly let the 2 yellows walk passed his crate to go into the garden, he exploded, he has charged them before through the crate and one of us takes the passing dog out of the kitchen while the other corrects Harry with the e-collar or a verbal command, he subsides, things calm down and we move on, this time, I was on my own, Harry went berserk and crashed against the crate until he actually smashed one of the pannels out, the fight was long, bloody and I look like I have been slashed across the belly with a blade where I tried and failed to hold the metal pannel in place, three dogs with a combined weight of 30 stone and the kitchen turned into a blood bath, I managed to get the female out of the room by twisting her ear by taking one hand off the crate and booting her with the leg that wasn't trapped into the lounge, and then I shut the door on the males to try and get a minutes clarity, it went quiet in the kitchen, I opened the door and they had both dropped to the floor exhausted.

Anyway, that was several hours ago, I have moved Harry out into a make shift kennel in the garden summer house, him and Kaiser are both licking their wounds, and the female, hasn't a mark on her, I am bloody exhausted and have a thumping headache.

It is obvious I have a shitty situation of my own doing, I was over ambitious and let my feelings of pity over Kaiser blot out all rational thought, disregarded concern that I was getting in over my head, and worst of all am subjecting Harry to isolation because I took in a rehomer when he was so young, and let the feelings of pity for Kaiser interfere with the needs of a pup who barely had time to say howdy before bringing a needy, demanding, starved of affection boy who stole our hearts and craved our attention into his life, when he needed our focus on him.

The way I see it, none of this is fair on any of the dogs, (the pointers are not part of the problem, and all the Boerboels treat them affectionatly and just happily co-exist with them)I don't believe Harry at 18 months is beyond hope, he is just a pup for gods sake, I know I am doing something wrong, all the dogs get a 45-50 minute road walk, an hour and a half off lead free running, (in two seperate packs), have raw diets, and in Harry's case, a lot of one on one ob, structured and disciplined routines, not allowed on furniture, not allowed upstairs and no high value treats and toys en masse.

I am ready for some probably well deserved arse kicking, but mostly I am hoping someone can offer some practical advice on the way forward.

Sorry for the lengthy post.

Tracey

WOW...what a mess!!!

Too bad for all of you, that you did not pay attention to the warning signs a while back.

One thing that popped out at me was the use of the e-collar in an aggression situation. This often amplifies or accelerates the aggression issues it does not FIX THEM.
Also dogs with a fight history need to be kept completely separated in most cases FOREVER. Except in rare occasion in the hands of a very experienced trainer. This separation includes CONTAINMENT that CANNOT be BREECHED!!! Each time that these dogs get to act on their aggression…it will get worse & worse with each encounter. You have been very lucky so far that you, your daughter or the dogs have not been VERY SERIOUSLY injured or worse, KILLED.
Most people find it very difficult to have multiple dogs that cannot be together. I’ve done it with 3. And I can tell you it is a real PITA to live that way. It can often be a fact of life if you want multiple dogs.
I think that it may be time to seriously consider re-homing one of these males, If you cannot be sure that they cannot get at each other EVER again.
Another issue is walking these dogs past each other, crated or not. This is going to stir things up. I would find a place that is a different room or whatever so that these dogs do not have to EVEN see each other.
If keeping these dogs you should consider one of the top of the line steel crates, but are very expensive. They are around $500 or more. These are designed to KEEP the dog in. I know people that have working dogs that have broken thru numerous crates, but have been contained in these crates. I think Ed sells them here but I am sure they are available in other places as well. Even across the pond. Possibly a K9 supplier.

I think that you situation is beyond just a training issue. JMO

I believe it's been said before, but you're going to have to commit yourself to 100% separation if you're going to keep all these dogs. Not just the separation you have going now... but NO EYE CONTACT. You CANNOT allow these dogs to see one another, or it will escalate into another situation like you had today.

That said, I'm very very sorry it happened. I hope you and the dogs are OK.

Edited by Kelly Byrd (05/22/2011 04:39 PM)
Edit reason: Anne posted, a much better reply while I was typing. Thanks Anne!

Thanks Anne and Kelly

Yes the separation is now definately going to be permanent, and I agree Kelly that the eye contact has to be zero, I am in a fortunate situation that I have adult children and no husband to have to take into account where my time is concerned and I am completely committed to the dogs and their welfare, I think I have been too concerned with what I thought they needed from me in the way of love and affection, rather than what they needed as DOGS, and as a by the way Anne, just to reassure you I have never used the e-collar when they are in the zone, but have used it when the posturing or when the head drops and the tail goes up, and I have caught it 9 times out of 10, this time I failed the dogs miserably

If the dogs are kept seperated...where they can't see each other there is no eye contact or posturing going to happen.

Concur completely, it is a whole life committment, whatever it takes I will absolutely do

I would look into isolating the two males i.e. crate (or dog) in the bedroom with the door LOCKED. Keep at least one locked door between them at all times.

There is to be no walking past, no interracting, no sight of each other.

While a steel crate is an option and will prevent dogs from getting out, it won't protect him from injuring himself on the crate.

Hate to say it but have you considered trying to find him a home through a breed rescue? You could keep on with segregating them in the meantime until the right home comes along. I would just ask yourself if you deserve the stress that you are having to live with... or the stress that you are putting your dogs under.

I do take your point Tanith, it was one of the things we talked about when the three of us got together tonight, the general concensus was that it would be wrong for us to move him on, simply because it would pass the problem on to another family, it is documented here that Boerboel dogs with aggression issues have been rehomed in good faith to people who have seemingly had good credentials, only for the dog to be used as bait for fighting rings, such is their high pain thresholds, I feel Harry, once out of our hands would be either placed with someone looking for an 'aggressive' dog,or could fall into a well meaning but misguided family who talk the talk, but wouldn't possibly 'get' what the breed is about, I know people reading this may say well neither do we, and they may have a valid point, but I feel a huge responsibility towards this youngster and would have to be 100% sure of where he was going, that said, I have given proper and serious thought to what you have suggested, I just don't know if I could sleep at night if there was even a niggling doubt, I feel I have failed this pup and passing him on would haunt me forever if I got it wrong.

 Quote: tracey holden

It is obvious I have a shitty situation of my own doing, I was over ambitious and let my feelings of pity over Kaiser blot out all rational thought, disregarded concern that I was getting in over my head, and worst of all am subjecting Harry to isolation because I took in a rehomer when he was so young, and let the feelings of pity for Kaiser interfere with the needs of a pup who barely had time to say howdy before bringing a needy, demanding, starved of affection boy who stole our hearts and craved our attention into his life, when he needed our focus on him.

As to your initial question "Am I out of my depth" - I believe you are.

You have made a completely emotional decision which involves other living creatures and how they are going to be able to live out their lives (now in separation / rotation / in crates), as well as have put your family and yourself in harms way.

Your heart was in the right place... that I understand. However, is this REALLY how you want to live the next 15 years of your life? Is this REALLY what is best for the dog - removing all EMOTIONAL responses/thoughts and just looking at it analytically?

I fear you are still being "overly ambitious and not listening to rational thought" and letting your emotions dictate how you proceed.

And NONE of this is said to be mean - please hear that. I couldn't do what you are trying to do, trust me... And I have absolutely NO desire to ever do so. My emotions would be haunting me as well, but that wouldn't make them the correct barometer by which to base this decision. JMHO and best of luck to you.

For awhile, I had a younger chesapeake bay retriever and a bull terrier, both bitches. The bull terrier loved to fight, just loved it, the way a lab loves balls or a pointer points. Bloody fights with skin flaps, antibiotics and sutures every 6 mos when some one would allow them to interact, always an "accident", we tried to keep them apart, with crates,separate doors, no face time etc.
Eventually, the poor chessy was hit and killed by the UPS man. The change in our home life was amazing, the elimination of the stress, the constant tension.
I guess, now, I might consider putting to sleep one of those males.
Or find a person by a careful search who wants only one dog and is interested in a dog with this temperament, perhaps a single man or woman who loves to walk and train, someone you could keep contact with. I think living together with these 5 could affect your family relationships in a negative way.
I tell you from personal experience that putting animals before family and children specifically is something I have done and now regret.