hello all.

I hope to gain some insight from some of you more experienced dog handlers on the board. I have read quite a bit over the past few days, and cannot seem to make the info jive completely with my dogs behavior.

Background: I got a rescue rottweiler in July. She is 3-4, no other history. I do know she was at the SPCA for several weeks, and at the rescue for approx one month, and was said to have a "marvelous" temperment by both places.

Issues: Over the time that I have had her, she has barked aggressively several times at people. Looking back, I feel embarrased at my unwillingness to see it as a "behavior" instead of as a "one time incident"-- so please be kind about this. I think now I am hoping to maybe try to understand if she is barking/snapping out of fear or dominance. And then what steps you might suggest. I will give details now of the incidents (chronologically), with hope there may be enough detail for you to discern what may be going on.
1) maybe a month after getting her, at a house work party, she snapped at one woman's rear-end. Then again later in the day when the woman leaned down to throw something in the trashcan, my dog snapped this time at her face. (please don't yell at me-- I can see know the seriousness). Other than these two incidents, my dog did not seem to act strangely toward this woman
2) a young child was at the house, and playing with the dog on the floor, under close supervision. After some time, my dog bark quite meanly at the child.
3) a friend of mine, who had previously house sat and pet-sat for me for a week, was at my house, sitting on the floor (or leaning over, I can't remember) with my dog, and got barked at-- in the face.
4) soon after incident #3, a friend of mine came over, who had never met my dog, and when she went to pet my dog, pebbles (the dog) barked and snapped at her arm.
5) over christmas, visiting my sister, whom pebbles had never met before, approx 3 hours after being at the house, my sister was looking under a coffee table at pebbles, and got barked at quite aggressively. later in the trip, pebbles peed on my sister's floor twice (and she is completely house broken at home). I don't know if that is a clue. There are other dogs who visit that house, but who were not there at the time.
6) at a party we had at my house the other weekend, pebbles was allowed to mingle with guests with her muzzle on (she is always muzzled with at parties after the incident in august). After several hours of people being there, and she was quite social, walking around getting some attention from each person in turn, she barked at a guest who bent down toward her face. After this, I crated her but then she barked at everyone if they went into the dining room (where her crate and the party snacks were).
7) she growled at me while I was trying to take a toy away from her last week. She had previously been *more* than willing to drop toys as I approached.
8) she barked (from her crate) at the repair man. And she has also barked twice (recently, since christmas) at friends of mine she had previously met when they came into the house when I was outside.
9) she barked/snapped at my (new since December)roommate who was going to pet her while she was sitting on her couch. (until a couple days ago, I was allowing pebbles to sit on one couch in the house, but I have stopped allowing that.) She also barked at my roommate and her friend later that day when she was in her crate after I had left the house.
10) yesterday on a walk she barked at a young girl who came up to pet her. This is the first time she has ever barked at someone outside of my house.

Comments:
-When she barks/snaps at someone she never gives any warning signs that I can see. Also, since she is a rott, she has a cropped tail, making it hard to tell if she is tucking it or not.
-she is semi trained, she walks well on a leash and sits, and in the past couple days (since I started to get quite worried), I have now put her in doggy boot camp. She is doing well learning to sit until released, and learning down.
-she does have a crate that she stays in while I am at work. She spends the night on the floor in my bedroom
-Many of the incidents happened in the past two weeks or so--- and also seemed to coincide with a rise in other bad behaviors-- specifically searching the kitchen counter for food, which she was successful at getting several times because it had never been a problem before so we weren't careful about keeping the counters food free.
-she has in general acted very submissive to me, I was able to "train" her out of wanting to kill my roommate's cat-- generally using *very* harsh corrections (including laying on top of her).
-also maybe of note, since she went into doggy boot camp-- she has not been surfing the counters for food it seems. even last night when there was puppy food on the counter
-let me also mention that. She was bred before we got her-- and the neighborhood stray had her litter of puppies under our house (they are still there, and almost 5 weeks old). Pebbles truly bad behavior has also coincided somewhat with this event

as a side note, she is not very friendly to other dogs. She raises her hackles at most dogs, and will also stamp around them and put her head over their shoulders. I can give more details about her dog behavior if it might help one of you give me pointers on her personality.

I guess that is enough for now. This is probably too long already. I do understand it will probably be impossible for someone to be able to id her bevhavior perfectly over the web, so as a last request, I would appreciate a trainer recommendation in Raleigh, NC if anyone knows someone worth working with.

thank you *very* much in advance. Just reading previous posts has helped me a lot.

-chloe palenchar

Well....it is not all that impossible to see what is going on here. This dog is bad news. Sounds like a peice of garbage to me. Seems that someone or several previous people did not have the guts or the know how to fix the problem so they were not very honest about the dogs history. Many people who have a problem dog(aggression) don't know what to do and so they bring the dog to a shelter and don't fully disclose the history. All they care about is getting rid of the dog. This is very pathetic and very sad. You have described enough instances that say to me that this problem has not just come out of nowhere. This dog is a liability to you. I see you having 3 choices. #1..Confine this dog when not supervised. Even under supervision muzzle the dog and learn how to do serious obedience training. #2..Find someone with a vast amount of experience dealing with a dog like this and give them the dog. #3...Put the dog down. But whatever you do.....please don't just pass the problem to someone else. Some kid will end up getting mauled.

I ALWAYS feel putting a dog down is a last resort. This dog has not actually bitten anyone...just snapped. That is bad enough....but there is a chance that with professional help you may be able to control her. You will never be able to 100% trust her.

STOP THIS ALPHA "LAYING ON TOP OF HER" STUFF!!! You are asking to get your face bitten off!! Or at least use a muzzle.

After giving 10 instances of very scary behavior....your post starts to mellow and say how great she is doing in "Doggy bootcamp". Although it is encouraging to hear that the dog is learning some basic OB commands, more intensive work needs to be done on the aggression.

You will get varying opinions on this but my way would be ...show agression...face my wrath. Serious prong collar corrections. You may not be able to do this without getting hurt. That is why you need help. Others here may suggest more peaceful, lovey dovey solutions but I will stand by mine.

I have an unrelated question for you...you say there is a litter of 5 week old puppies under your house? Is anyone taking care of them?

You never mentioned how you reacted when she showed unwanted agression. Crating her is NOT punishment and I have to say I totally agree with the "feel my wrath" theory. For HER own good.

The people you got her from (shelter? )may not have lied about her personality. Many bad doggies pretend to be angels when they don't have a home (smart eh?). I have rescued many dogs that where like this (angelic) until they felt 'safe' in a new home. Of course the families that give dogs up almost always lie.

What does sending her to 'doggy boot camp' mean? I hope you have not left her alone with the trainer. It is obvious to me that you need a personal trainer to train YOU, one on one, in your neighborhood and on your property. The submission she is showing you is probably because the people who raised her were correcting her badly and at the wrong time. If they had done it right she wouldn't have gotten kicked out of their home. She has only learned to SHOW (fake) respect to her master (it made the other ones leave her be) but not WHY she should respect them or how to behave herself. I wouldn't be at all suprised if she began 'testing' you more agressively soon. She is sad and confused not to mention a menace. From your post, sadly, I have to assume this dog is too much for you.

You have to be on your toes with such a dog (aka ready to show WRATH in seconds at anytime - and ready to reward alot too!). You also need to spend alot of time training her daily YOURSELF (with the personal trainer at hand) in various environments and setting her up for corrections (ex. training sessions with your friends over).

You would also need to read up on what a working dog IS. For example, barking at your friends when they enter uninvited (as you mentioned) is DESIRABLE behavior in a Rotweiller. Barking at them when you have let them in and they pose no threat is BAD, BAD, BAD. You will need to read about these differences (and many more) in order to be 'worthy' of any working breed and it goes double for the 'confused' Rottie you have now.

There is no such thing as a pet Rottweiller -this is a working dog that needs to be challenged and 'used' or it will get into trouble. Even badly bred ones need the work (if not more).

If you don't have the energy, time and money this dog needs, try to find someone who does. She will never be happy if her life continues in this stressful way -and you won't either.

Frankly this dog scares me. She is going to hurt someone if this behavior is not stopped. She is now growling at you, this is a very bad sign. For your safty, either put this dog it her place now with a prong collar or put her to sleep. You are the pack leader, if she does not respect that you have lost. You need help despertly, contact a local breeder in the area or a vet to find a trainer that can help you. They can show you how to correct the dog. Maybe you can work through this, but as already suggested never trust this dog!!! Because you have children, you are risking their safety. I personally could not do this and would put the dog down.

Thank you all very much for the responses. Here is some feedback to what you have said:

Chuck: Have *no* fear, I will not pass this dog to along to anyone else (unless perhaps I am convinced they can do well by the dog, but it would take a lot of convincing for me to hand her off to *anyone* else). I already have stopped the "alpha roll" type stuff-- I have already read elsewhere on the site about how that is a bad idea.

Shay: yes, I am taking care of the puppies as best I can. I feed them and socialize them. (I also feed mom.) I will sedate and spay momma dog after they are weaned. I am hoping to be able to get the puppies spayed (if appropriate-- I will seek advice on when to spay them) and first shots and adopted to good homes.

Stella: I must admit my corrections were probably not strong enough to her previous behavior-- simple strong verbal corrections. This is my fault-- out of suprise at her actions (as mentioned before she gives no warning signs that I can read), and embarrassment at giving strong corrections in front on people (yes I know this is stupid, and I have gotten over it-- but I didn't want people to think I was "abusive" towards my dog if they saw the level of corrections I gave her to break her of her cat chasing habit). I will be giving *strong* prong collar corrections if/when this behavior reappears.

By doggy boot camp I mean that she is doing very strict OB-- sitting until I get out the door, all sit/downs until I release her, sitting until I finish fixing her food and release her, no attention unless I give her a command first and she obeys, etc. I will not send her away to someone. Other ideas for this program are welcomed- I am doing all the things I have read are a good idea from other posts.

As for the dog being too much for me-- I think this may not be true. When I got her, I was a "bad ass" for a bit-- until I got her behavior to an acceptable place. I then (wrongly) assumed pack/behavior issues were settled and I could start to loosen up. I think this is where I made my mistake, and maybe a mistake other beginners would make-- so I take the time to mention it here. I think I have it in me to handle this dog, and now I know I cannot ever let up.

I agree about the friends entering unvited should be barked at-- but the cases I mentioned were borderline, i.e. they were invited into the house, we left together and then they reentered while I was out on the back porch. Even still I think what she did (probably was) okay/good, because in both cases she barked at them from the dining room (one room from the door), but did not charge them or anything. Although I would be interested in someone's comments on whether they think this is okay.

Kim: I do not have children. The child was a friend's who was visiting.

As mentioned by several people I do need to work with an experienced person, if anyone does have a rec for Raleigh, NC, please let me know.

Next, I didn't get any comments so far on whether people think this behavior is motivated by fear or dominance (or something else (?) ). Is this because you think this distinction is irrelevant, or you don't have enough info, or something else?

Also, can someone comment on what warning signs I might look for in the future, i.e. warnings that she is about to bark at someone? If I could see a half (or even 1/32) second before it happened, I would definitely be able to deal better with the situation.

thank you again,

chloe

sorry... one more questions. As noted, she should be corrected *strongly* for barking inappropriately at people. In my mind this would be most effectively accomplished by finding someone capable of reliably causing her to show this behavior then reliably correcting her for it. If you were looking for such a person where would you look? Is this a really stupid idea (assuming that she is muzzled and should not be able to cause actual physical harm?) And if it is not stupid, how would you find someone like this?

I would never trust this dog around children! It only takes one bite to do serious damage to a child. It's not worth it.

Debbie

I did not/do not trust my dog around children. As a new rescue I didn't know her personality but wanted to socialize her (including around children)-- the incident where she barked at the child was after she and the dog had been "hanging" out for a little while-- for the whole first part of the hanging out time she was muzzled (because I did not know her and therefore did not trust her). When they seemed fine, I did take the muzzle off, and it was sometime after this that she barked at the kid.

Now clearly since I have witnessed this behavior she is not allowed around children unmuzzled.

Chloe,
I'm not getting a real clear read on exactly what's going on with the dog. I'll just make some general comments here, thinking out loud, so bear with me.

First, it's possible that the people at the shelter did not see this behavior. The dog may not have been in a situation what would trigger it while she was there. Many shelters are understaffed and underfunded, and they really can't spend a lot of time with each dog, so there is stuff that can be missed. As also has been mentioned, many dogs don't really show their true colors until they start to feel comfortable in their new home.

I'm seeing things that tell me that there may be both some dominance AND some fear. Hackles up when meeting other dogs is a sign of fear, but putting her head over their neck is a dominance posture. So, it sounds like, in those situations, she's got both things going on. She's probably feeling a lot of conflicting things when she's around other dogs. This makes those situations very potentially dangerous.

As far as barking from her kennel, that sounds like a defensive reaction. She's trapped in a kennel with no escape route. I'd suggest that if you need to crate her when you have company, put her crate in a quiet, out of the way area where nobody will be going. If you're not worried about possessive aggression, give her a stuffed Kong to chew on while she's in there, to help her relax and have something to do, and create a positive association with being in her crate. If you're concerned that she might defend her Kong if you come to take her out of her crate, then skip the Kong. You could try trading her a piece of hot dog for the Kong when you let her out.

What disturbs me the most about her snapping/barking, is that there appears to be no warning. It's possible that she may have been corrected harshly in the past for this behavior, so she has eliminated the warning. That's one of the dangers of correcting the behavior without changing the emotional state that causes the behavior (using operant conditioning instead of classical conditioning). OR, it could simply be that her warnings are so subtle that it's tough to see them. It could be as simple as a slight stiffening of the body, and a slight hardening of her eyes.

It does sound like specific situations trigger the behavior. People bending down, to be specific. People near her face, etc. This *could* be related to dominance, in that she takes this face-level interaction as a challenge. It could be fear, in that she percieves this as a threat. Either way, for the time being, I would avoid putting her in situations that you know will trigger her response. Continue to use the muzzle around people, and work her in obedience DAILY. Start with the basics (even if she already knows them), then gradually increase distractions. She needs to learn to obey you no matter what else is going on around her. Whether she's acting out of rank or fear, she needs clear leadership. This doesn't mean you have to treat her harshly, but definitely firmly, consistently, and fairly.

Keep in mind that DISTANCE is critical. Often, when dogs are responding to a stimulus, such as another dog or a person, if they are too close to the stimulus, it is very hard for them to follow a command. If that happens, increase the distance to a place where the dog can still be aware of the stimulus, but also be succcessful at following your command. This is something that I forget sometimes myself, but it is very important to remember!!!! Over time, if you're doing things correctly, you can decrease the distance between the dog and the stimulus and the dog will still be successful at following your direction.

I think that due to her age, it is probably not possible to undo whatever is going on. But, you can learn how to make sure that you are in control of every situation that you put her in, and take appropriate precautions to keep others safe. You may have to take these precautions for the rest of her life. It wouldn't hurt to find a trainer who understands how to use classical conditioning/counterconditioning/desensitization techniques on fear aggressive dogs. This could really be the best thing you can do.