Hey guys:

Not sure what sparked it (my posts on the fear biter thread perhaps ), but I spent quite a while last night (and this morning) answering some incredibly supportive PM’s from folks, sharing their experiences and providing encouragement for what I’m doing with Vince.

As I thought, while very individual in their characteristics, these dogs are not all that rare. How far they make it in “our” society is. What I did hear loud and clear in each one is about the bond, the stuff people don’t get to see, which I must also confirm.

It’s a bit hard to describe but their attention to detail, the way they conduct and carry themselves, their desire for order and the overall ease of home life (less the guests of course) makes these guys such a pleasure to live with.

I have two very friendly, social pups that I would describe as outgoing and extroverted. Vince has no problem hanging out on his own and I would describe him as extremely introverted where people are concerned. Not in a “crawl in your shell and hide” way, but more of “I have no use for you, go away” way.

And while dogs in general are “man’s best friend” for many of the same reason, it’s also hard to describe the level of emphasis these guys put on loyalty, commitment and eagerness to please. And the sweet, sweet, sweet disposition that comes out in the quiet times when they initiate tender engagement, just oozing with respect and gratitude that seems to be saying “Thank you for all you do for me”. I know, they're dogs, it's more of a self-satisfying entitlement, but these guys really do have their moments.


And again, I also wanted to say thank you for Ram. It’s not like I didn’t know this man had a good understanding of and love for dogs, but he has explained things that show a deep understanding of these animals that has also confirmed my own thoughts. These guys are very much worth the effort, should you choose to put the time in. And no rose colored glasses here, I’m living it. It’s a ton of work, on a few different levels.

But the real reason for my post, Ram has sent me some incredible information and one training method in particular that I want to put into place. Once the initial meet and greet is over, Vince is quite comfortable walking beside people as we’re marching along and he’s pretty good at ignoring people walking and sitting around him as long as they’re not in his face and no direct eye contact.

I’ve primarily taken an exposure and desensitization process – extremely slowly, over these past two years. If we’re going to be in a highly populated area that he’s not familiar with, he wears a prong and muzzle. He’s hit the end of a short leash a few times with a fair amount of intensity but I haven’t really taken a pro-active approach to these corrections, more self-inflicted. Rare these days as I can read him and quickly remove him from these situation.

The general public is clueless though. They see an obedient dog and feel there should be some kind of "entitlement" to come up and pet them. I think Vince is ready for another level of training and would really like to instill a bit more of a buffer zone.

This video Ram sent me, with Bernard Flinks, has really resonated with me. I’m sure many of you Schutzhund folks are familiar with this process. I would like to try this but I want to do it right. And while I think the guy in the video’s timing is a bit off, his dog has a “watch him” or “alert” command. Vince does not. Geeze, never been needed but… I can really see the benefit to create the black and white.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXAXwiv2m6s&feature=related

With Vince’s marker base does anyone have any suggestions on how I should correctly approach this or see any reasons why this may not be a good idea?

OK, so in this video, we are essentially seeing an on and off command for an alert? (please forgive my ignorance, but I want to make sure I'm getting what is going on here)

Interesting...seems like it would be a good thing for a dog like Vince to know. Certainly falls into the 'obedience is everything' category...

I hope this thread continues in the same vein as the other. Really good information, and a window into dogs who may not have the most solid of temperments...

Do you think that it would be safe to allow Vince permission to "light up"?

I've been told that a dog can't even learn that sometimes he can jump up on you, for a hug, when you ask, if at all other times this is forbidden-- that this is confusing to the dog.

It seems you'd have to be a very good trainer, with a dog whose growl/bite is mostly "pretend", or not from his heart, for this to work. But I sure don't know.

FWIW....I don't believe that it is the best idea to teach a mentally unstable (doesn't matter what the source of that instability is...genetic or genentically enhanced by bad handeling or mistreatment) dog that it is ok to bite someone under ANY circumstances. Even with a command to alert & then turn off.

You will be opening yourself to quite the liability lawsuit if anything every goes wrong & it gets out (& trust, me it will) that this dog of questionable temperment has been taught to do this. It is one thing to fight the tide of public opinion on bite work with a VERY stable, social dog & quite another with a dog that has a questionable temperment.

Just the info that you have posted on this site regarding this dog & his 'issues' alone will dume you. Not hard to find googling your name, his ect. Any rookie lawyer will have a computer wizz on the payroll to look for just this type of stuff to cement his case against you & your dog.

JMHO of course.

Hey Anne, thanks for that prespective and I fully understand this. Like I said in the other thread, the thought of him doing bite work and participating in protection sports was eliminated from my thought process the minute we left the ME seminar he was assessed at. It’s been very clearly explained to me. I couldn’t have asked for a better explanation as to how it applies to Vince and fully agree with everything that was said. Again, bite work/protection sports with him was an idea that has long since been buried.

And I certainly do hear what you’re saying about liability. It is an issue that I think about, that I plan and prepare for everyday. An issue that is and has been on my mind since the day this dog came into my care. I have reviewed the laws in our area and can almost cite some of them backwards but when a bite happens, it really all boils down to perception. Vince wouldn’t stand a chance even if he had Mother Theresa on the stand, explaining how potentially innocent his part in an incident was.

But also, how many times do we hear about long loved, happy go lucky Fluffy who would never do something like that, being put to sleep because it did happen, and it did happened again? People in denial or living in oblivion of what their dogs may be capable of.

I do know what I’m dealing with and was looking at this practice of Mr. Flink’s, for a possible training method to remove those impulsive tendencies. A way to eliminate any form of independent thought once a command was given.

I’m not sure if you watched the video but aside from an alert bark, which Vince does anyway if I’m lucky enough to have him tell me his intentions well ahead of time, this has nothing to do with biting. In fact, as was the result shown here, it is to get him to stop lunging with that intent.

If you watch the video, starting at approx. 5:44 and only goes for a few seconds, this is almost exactly what Vince is doing. Turn him around and I have a different dog. He doesn’t hold on to this for any length of time once the offending human is out of his reaction zone.

It looks like an understandable process that is black and white with an alert command. I’m wondering if it can be done without this or if there is a need to associate something similar for him. I could introduce corrections at any time but he has to be performing the behavior in order to apply the meaning. Because of the strict management and close attention to details in training, he hasn’t had an opportunity, or felt threatened to the point where he has felt the need to lash violently in a long time, over a year. Presented with a similar situation like that shown in the video, he most certainly would.

As I said originally, with the two rounds of testing I had done, I felt I had actually made things worse. He was an antsy boy for about a month after this until the desensitization work started to kick in. He has progressively increased, to a reliable boy in all the situations he’s put in, nothing I know he can’t handle or as I’ve said, we’re on prong and muzzle.

When I saw this video, it “looked” exactly like what I’m already dealing with. If this method is as responsive as it appears, I think Vince is at a point where he could understand this type of correction, if introduced properly and in a meaningful way.

We don’t have an alert command, but could it be done without one, or something similar introduced or as you say Anne, aside from the liabilities of actual bite work (which I have no intention of introducing), is this not a good idea at all.

CJ,

Whether you like it or not , he is ALREADY doing the alert. You are not going to teach that to him. You are just going to put that on cue.

Having said that if there are legal liability issues,you can just teach the "BE NICE" command. He is not doing that naturally now. So you have to teach that.

If you do the "BE NICE" command 100s of times before a human approaches, then you don't even need the command. Just the human approaching will cue him to "BE NICE" .

Betty, As I mentioned , now Vince is lighting up with out permission. He is not waiting for CJ to say "Watch him Vince". So there is no question of allowing him.


My dogs have many bad habits. So , I put most of their bad habits on cue. Like smelling other dog's butt. They are allowed to smell the strange dog's butt only if I say "go say hello" . They are allowed to bark and lunge aggressively at other dogs/people if I say "Watch him".

They are not allowed to display aggression unless they hear the words "Watch him" and I will correct them pretty hard if they don't switch off when I say "Fuss".

I have taught this just to Kaiser and Bommi who have a natural tendency to be aggressive. I have not taught this to Helga/kari because there is no aggression in her for me to turn off.

I can tell you that it helps me and my dogs. Before I taught "Watch him". Kaiser would randomly lunge at dogs that pass by, now he knows that there are rules for that behaviour. (Ex. using a gun only in a shooting range/evacuating the building only if you hear the fire bell/Crashing the car into a barricade only if the brake fails/breaking the medicine cabinet and getting the asprin only if some one has a heart attack).

We are taught that many undesirable behaviours are acceptable ONLY under special circumstances. I have extended that to my dogs.

I am no expert in dog training and I live in a different country that has different social and legal boundaries. So take what I say for what it is worth.

Is it just me or does the dog in the video look stressed and is not enjoying the "training?" He tried to hide between the handler's legs several times. I understand the language and I can barely figure out what idea they are trying to convey, I can only imagine how confused the dog is.

I don't think it is a good idea to bring out the defense in a dog that is already suffering from fear aggression. A solid "sit" or "down" command is much better and less stressful to the dog. JMHO.

 Quote: ramachandran subramanian

If you do the "BE NICE" command 100s of times before a human approaches, then you don't even need the command. Just the human approaching will cue him to "BE NICE" .

I like this theory, but right now I don’t allow random people to approach head on like that, which is probably a large part of his success so far. Like I said, I've taken it really slow but I feel he's ready for a more meaningful next step.

Currently, we will walk around, turn around, completely avoid situations where this may be the case with random people. Bullet proof, fool proof, 100% management to this point. It's built an incredible, trusting relationship.

I really like the idea of training this. It would be new to him and I would like to do it in a controlled environment to begin with (the correction being a planned part of the equation if necessary - I can't see it not being but I've been wrong before). I would like him to get it right the first time and practice fool proof consistency every single time.

I can just see trying to do this in public – and even with a muzzle on, I don’t think it would go over well, for Vince or anyone trying to figure out what he may potentially be reacting to.

As well, I would like to get some reliability or some simple understanding on his part with the muzzle off. I believe he knows/feels the difference as he seems to walk a little closer and is diverting his attention to me more often (which is good but I can feel the insecurities). The instances where people are walking towards us are the worst – where I will take a few steps sideways to avoid the frontal approach and ensure they don’t get anywhere near his reaction zone. He watches people closely, I’m sure he’s looking/waiting for any false move or direct approach.

I think saying “Be Nice” in the type of situation/training piece thatI've quoted there Ram, without the correction, (with Vince) would actually be putting a command on the reactive alert. It sounds like it could get to grey.

I was kind of thinking - the frontal approach, “Be Nice” (loudy – hopefully ear dropping) the reaction, a meaningful prong correction…. to bring him down (not exactly sure how he will interpret this at this point), but once he is settled, I’ll have the threat walk away initially, working up to a longer interaction with a goal of a settled dog and a hand shake.

And like you say Ram, he definitely is alerting, but it’s independently, nothing I’m asking him to do. Perhaps I can just leave that at it is and simply work on the fool proof “Be Nice”.

Hey Melissa:

He has a pretty solid sit but it's this lunging reaction that is unpredictable. In these situations, much like in the video, it is not solid. This is what I'm look to move forward on.

Yes, it does look like there is a fair amount of pressure on the dog, but the pressure Vince is putting on himself right now in how he feels he should be reacting has also got to be tremendous... in a different way. A pretty big burden to be carrying.

I want to remove this for him. Hence my post, I'm in a bit of quandry here.