I have been trying to post this for a while but my lap top has not been cooperating and I keep loosing entire posts so between busy work and lost time spent typing very frustrating so here is shorter version.

What supplements would aid in some relief of our itchy 3.5 yr old GS. I have checked for fleas and flea dirt and have not seen either just some small amounts of white flakes like dandruff. When she itches it's in different areas not focusing on any certain area.

She's eating Blue Wilderness chicken and wilderness salmon flavor switching back and forth between flavors on the kibble. The kibble gets added cooked chicken or beef, MSE natural defence probiotics, GNC pet mega skin & coat essentials beef flavor. The GNC is because the last time we tried the Salomon oil she wouldn't eat the food with it, though I have just found a reasonable salmon oil capsule on line.

I have seen derm vet mentioned many times here so if you think that's a good way to go? I called the Animal Dermatology Clinic in Tustin Ca it's $150 for the consultation and amazingly enough any meds or treatment extra.

Hi, Joe,

A couple of things:

How much does the dog weigh? I ask because capsules of fish oil for a large adult dog (whether GS is Giant Schnauzer or you meant GSD) are crazily pricey. JMO.

Even the very best liquid that's deodorized for humans (assuming that it's the fish flavor the dog didn't like on the food; although that's pretty uncommon, it's certainly not unheard of) will be a better value than the one 1000-gram gelcap per ten pounds of dog that I would recommend. (A 70-pound dog would get 7 gelcaps a day .... you see why liquid is the way I would go for any but small dogs.)

There must be Vitamin E provided as well, to protect the delicate PUFAs in oil supplements.

However, a dog itching all over may indeed have flea issues, and it really makes no difference that you haven't seen fleas or dirt unless you have actually done the white bed-sheet brushing test. http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=29702&page=1

Blue Buffalo had a big recall last year/this year on one of the flavors you're using. Have you compared your bags with lot numbers?

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/Veterinary+news/Blue-Buffalo-issues-voluntary-pet-food-recall/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/690843

http://news.vin.com/VINNews.aspx?articleId=16727

And last, how itchy is the dog? Breaking skin? Interrupting sleep? Licking constantly?



ETA: Not to get off-topic, this is just a quick suggestion for anyone being interrupted online and losing long or involved posts, etc.: You can always compose a lengthy or time-consuming message offline (in Word or many other places) and then copy and paste it into a message box on a web board. This, of course, can also give easy spellcheck for those whose online spellcheck may be cumbersome.



Edited by Connie Sutherland (12/07/2011 01:20 PM)
Edit reason: ETA

Hi Connie,
Yes I meant German Shepherd and the last time I weighed her she was 87lbs that was no more than 2 weeks ago, so I can see the $$ factor adding up with caps.

Is it better to be using 100% salmon oil vs regular fish oils? I may try to see if I can get her to take the oil again. And with the vitamin E regular human capsules or tabs and how much?

As for the fleas I did do the white sheet test (if I did it right)using a flea comb, brush and my fingers going through the hair and I didn't get any pepper looking flakes on the sheet that would turn red with water, just dandruff and maybe some dirt from out training.

I will check the BB recall and other links when I get a chance thanks for that.
I have been thinking of changing to some other brand even as much as I hate kibble maybe going back to Canine Caviar. I've been through Nature's Variety Instinct, Wellness Grain Free, Orijen GF and another.Now if I could just convince the GF (Girl Friend not Grain Free)to let me feed raw but that's another topic or one for Dr Phil.

She hasn't broken skin and doesn't lick constantly and I wouldn't say her sleep is interrupted but there are times after she wakes she may itch but its doesn't seem like she awoke and immediately started scratching. I will try to keep a better eye on the amount of scratching over the weekend.

The last post I did off line after so many strikes and losses on line, thanks

"Yes I meant German Shepherd and the last time I weighed her she was 87lbs that was no more than 2 weeks ago, so I can see the $$ factor adding up with caps.

Is it better to be using 100% salmon oil vs regular fish oils? I may try to see if I can get her to take the oil again. And with the vitamin E regular human capsules or tabs and how much?"

For this size dog I would work up to almost two measuring teaspoons a day of fish oil. If they are scant (not quite filled to the brim) measuring teaspoons, the two will total about the 8.7 grams you want. I work up to the full amount over several days.

Wild salmon happens to be a low-merc, low-arsenic, etc., fish. Tiny fish (sardines, anchovies, etc.) are low in those bad metals* for other reasons (low on the food chain).

I always want a named fish oil, not just "fish oil" or "marine oil," and I want the named fish to be the tiny fish or wild salmon. (This is a very short-and-sweet recap of a big subject that we have discussed many times here .... fish would probably be the best search term, and maybe a three- or four-year range. It might even help to use my name as the poster name, but that's not necessary.)

You have several options. I would not think of this a "try to get her to take it" situation, but a "which way will work best with her" one. Fish oil is extremely important, IMO, and actually sits pretty much alone in my "THE supplement" category (along with the natural E that needs to be provided with it).

You could get deodorized gelcaps for now while you look for a deodorized liquid.

You could re-try a new (small) container of un-deodorized salmon oil under the theory that the dog may have been refusing oil that was rancid. (Treat fish oil like the delicate and valuable substance that it is, protecting it from heat, light, and air.)

You could share your own deodorized fish oil by Nordic or Carlson or another high-quality manufacturer with the dog to assure yourself that the dog will have no objection. (She won't. I have never heard of or read of or met a dog who objected to deodorized fish oil. Most, in fact, love the non-deodorized version, although, as mentioned, a few don't like the smell or taste of fish or fish oil.)

I would give this size dog about 400 IU/day of E. I would get (at a minimum) d-alpha as opposed to dl-alpha, and preferable with mixed tocopherols.

I'd probably start this protocol and give it a few weeks, then re-assess the flakiness and what sounds like mild itchiness. I would also keep a simple log of the time of day and the body geography of her itchiness. Trust me that you will be glad you did this if the fish oil and E are not sufficient.

I just want to add that fish oil is very important, whether it clears up this flakiness or not. (If it does not, we'll help with more suggestions ..... but the long-chain Omega 3s from the fish oil wouldn't be discontinued. )





* Arsenic is actually a metalloid, but metal is close enough for this discussion.

PS

If you consider the itching to be worse than "mild," or if it interrupts sleep or becomes frantic, or skin is broken from scratching, then I would not wait a few weeks for the fish oil's benefits before getting suggestions about a vet visit for a scraping, etc.

Thanks for the links I got a chance to look at the links scary stuff on the recall.

As for possible fleas her reaction could be from flea saliva from a bite right? Sorta like a flea drive by fleas jumping on biting and jumping off from out and about.

That's a skin scraping from a regular GP vet?

Yes, it could be from drive-by fleas. This is part of why I urge the body-geography, time, and intensity journal of the itching. Trust me when I tell you that any patterns revealed over a week or two will be helpful. If you can describe body geography to us, I/we can lead you in more-probable (although not definitive) directions for the trigger(s). I would also repeat the white-sheet test. There's almost 100% sure to be be flea dirt if there are fleas ... For one thing, a flea that finds a dog is going to hang out, not leave voluntarily.

A scraping can be done by a GP vet, yes. With what sounds to me like mild itching, I would want to have a better idea of the geography before embarking on that. Remember that you are there to record the body geography. The vet is not. All the vet knows is what you say, plus the briefest of visual evidence when the dog is probably too busy reacting to the vet visit to scratch.

For example, does the dog rub her face on the carpet or furniture? Paw at her ears? Lick between toes? Scratch at flanks?

Are the insides of her ears healthy, or do you smell an odor or see debris or inflammation?

Do you see or smell anything different in the armpits or any other folds?

All of this info is very valuable.

If the dog was breaking skin or losing sleep or frantically scratching, none of these observations would keep me from making a vet appointment. But she isn't, so my most likely course would be the fish oil outlined above, repeats of the sheet test, and a journal.



eta
A scraping will reveal SOME itch triggers. Depending on the overall symptoms, and partly depending on the body geography of the pruritis, it may or may not be a first step.

I'm not a health professional, BTW. All JMO.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (12/08/2011 10:19 AM)
Edit reason: eta

Joe/Connie

Have a look at this link, then click on the 'more details' link on the same page.

http://www.aviform.co.uk/Store/Top-Dog-Products/Conditioners$1Health/VITALCOAT-Dog-Coat-and-Skin-Conditioner

If you think this might help, let me know and I will get it off to you, if you think you might like to try it I will send you a sample, enough to see if your dog gets on with it, no charge

I never want to pay fish oil prices for vegetable oil. Here's why: even the vegetable Omega 3 called ALA, which can be converted to the beneficial long-chain EPA and DHA in humans, even though it's extremely inefficient (a conversion rate of 4 to 15%), has about a zero conversion rate for dogs. Nothing wrong with it, but for a dog, it's basically filler when you want to supplement long-chain Omega 3s.

And so-called balanced EFA (essential fatty acids) supplements for dogs (and to a great extent for people too) are a marketing gimmick. Omega 6s and even shorter-chain Omega 3s are plentiful in modern diets; it's long-chain 3s that we need.

If you look at these ingredients, you see:

Vitamin A, Vitamin E, GLA (an Omega 6), Linoleic Acid (an Omega 6), and cod liver oil. Cod liver oil is a source of long-chain Omega 3s, but in a therapeutic amount presents the problem of too-high doses of fat-soluble vitamins that accumulate in the body (as opposed to excess flushing out, such as with, say, the water-soluble Vitamin C).

IOW, this is not at all a substitute for fish-body oil. We don't mean fish liver oil when we talk about fish oil for dogs unless the term "liver" is actually used. And when we supplement with long-chain 3s to better balance Omega 3s and 6s, including a bunch of Omega 6s in it is counter-productive.

The idea behind Omega 3 supplementation is to bring into closer balance dietary 6s and 3s. 6s promote the production of hormones that trigger inflammation, a necessary healing response. 3s keep inflammation in check. Unchecked inflammation, inflammation running amok, is a huge factor -- in many cases THE factor -- triggering chronic diseases from coronary artery disease in humans to diabetes to OA to IBS to Parkinson's to allergies, and many many more.

Modern diets have become wildly skewed towards Omega 6s over the last century or so. A big part of this is grain-fed slaughter animals. But this discussion is on the board here in great detail, so I won't re-invent the wheel in this post. A good search term might be Omega.

Recap: for dogs, adding long-chain 3s these days is most practicable by providing marine fat, and fish oil is easy to buy and to give.

 Quote: tracey holden

... If you think this might help, let me know and I will get it off to you, if you think you might like to try it I will send you a sample, enough to see if your dog gets on with it, no charge

HOWEVER, this is very nice of you!

But IMO, this is useful only insofar as it provides essential fatty acids.

The EFAs badly deficient in modern diets, though, are the long-chain 3s (EPA and DHA).