Hello, great site. I've learned more about dog-training in the last couple months than I did in a lifetime of living with dogs. I've watched "Training with Markers", "Basic Obedience Training", "Training Collars", and "Dominant and Aggressive Dogs", am in the middle of "Pack Training", and have also started on the series with Michael Ellis. Great products too; I need to quit ordering leather things, but they're so cool...

OK, I'll try (and fail) to keep this brief. I adopted a shelter dog named Mondo right before Labor Day, about four months ago. He had been found as a stray in January 2010, when he was approximately one year old. He was in the shelter until August, so now he's two. He is about 60 pounds, and genetic test for breed showed german shepherd, schnauzer, boxer, and lab.

He seemed to feel at home immediately. He gets along with my two older (12 and 15 years) female dogs, and three old cats. He is little too playful for their tastes, but not aggressive towards them. He is a very good house dog. He walks well on a leash, and stays with me off-leash. He played too roughly with me at first, but with a few "yelps" from me, he realized that he shouldn't bite during play. He is very smart and cute and puppyish and charming, and seemed to have this instant love and devotion towards me--so of course I will do anything for him and spend any amount of money and time necessary on him, lol.

OK, this is the issue: he guards. When he guards, he becomes FEROCIOUS. He turns into a different dog, growling and snarling and lunging and snapping, actually "cornering" people in the middle of the yard, because they are too scared to move. I was stupid at first, and thought he was just scared and that he would get over it and learn from my other dogs, but it escalated to the point where he almost got somebody. The first couple times, I was able to walk up and grab his collar. The last time, Mondo didn't want me to stop him. He kept slipping just out of my grasp, and trying to get behind the guy, who was jumping all over the place, trying to keep facing him and to keep him from biting. Luckily, the guy was able to psych Mondo out with whatever he was holding in his hand, not really a weapon, but Mondo seemed to think it was. Finally, not knowing what else to do, I just dropped to the ground, and Mondo came running over to me and I grabbed him.

He does stay by the porch, not bothering people who are just walking down the street, but anybody who comes into the yard is in danger.

So, I had a six foot high fence built, and called a clicker-trainer who was recommended by my vet (who Mondo also wanted to kill; he put his back up against me in the office and did his mean-dog thing at him). He guards when we are walking, but it's not nearly as bad as at home. He usually only becomes aggressive if the person "looks weird", like a man walking towards us with a walking stick, or a man with a bicycle helmet who talked to us, or a man at the vet who looked at us. Other dogs calm him; he seems to watch and see what they are doing and judge the situation by that, if he hasn't been set off for some other reason. If the person completely ignores us, he is usually OK.

Mondo wanted to attack the trainer when she came to the house, but she stood very still and didn't look at him, and she was able to click-treat while barely moving, and he eventually "accepted" her. He quit acting like he was going to rip her throat out anyway, but he started grabbing and pulling her clothing, practically pulling it off her body. He threw a fit when she tried to train him, biting his leash and pulling it away and literally beating and whipping her with it, growling all the while.

I was absolutely horrified, and scared for her safety, but she kept telling me to ignore him, and that we can't say no to him in this kind of training. However, after a couple of episodes like this, I told her that I could not stand there watch a dog of mine treat somebody like that without doing anything about it. So that was the end of that, but I did learn about clicker-training, and Mondo and I have kept up with it on our own.

The trouble with clicker-training is that Mondo immediately figured out how to game that system. For example, he gets one of my shoes and brings it to me, then puts his mouth on it like he's going to chew it, looking at me with puppy-dog eyes, saying, "See what a bad boy I am? You better give me a treat to stop me!" So that's why I am liking the information here so much; I think the combination of clicker-training plus being able to say "No!" works best with him.

These are my questions:

Is Mondo being territorially-aggressive at home, or fear-aggressive? Could it be territorial when at the house, and fear when walking? Does it matter in how I should deal with it?

Would it be possible for me to work with Mondo and try to get him to calm down when I tell him it's OK? Should I even try? If so, how would I go about that? Or will just working with him and training him in other ways be enough that he will eventually hopefully listen to commands under any situation?

Right now, I am doing the usual "sit, down, stay, heel" training, which he is great at. Would there be any specific commands that I should be working on that might help when he becomes aggressive? I am trying to do pack-leader stuff, and not indulge and spoil him, as is my nature with pets. I do realize the potential danger.

Do you think somebody trained him to be this way, or do you think it's instinctive? He seems completely emotionally healthy otherwise, not as if he's been abused or anything.

Right now, he is contained at home, and people are safe. I can physically control him with the right collar, and am not afraid of him at all. The few times I have gotten annoyed and raised my voice at him, he cowered and put his tail between his legs, so he is easily intimidated by me. Except when he's attacking somebody, that is. I would just like to be ready for any unforeseen things and be able to stop him if somehow he did get to somebody off-leash.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Here's a pic of Mondo and his older little brother Foxkitty, if you can see it:

Hi Rovena, welcome to the boards! And good for you, adopting a shelter dog and giving him a second chance at life. Did you mean he was picked up in January 2011? So he was in the shelter for 8 months?

What kind of socializing/handling/training did he get at the shelter for those months? What were his conditions? It would be good to know if he had any introductory exercises, how to meet and greet, etc. How did shelter people deal with his aggression and guarding?

I am not an expert, I am still learning how to handle my reactive-aggressive shelter doggie. There are others here that are far more knowledgeable than I am, but here is something that is working for me, after a year and a half of wrestling to get my dog to settle down around SEC - sudden environmental changes. I am learning the BAT method of using functional rewards and reinforcing calming responses to outside stimulations.

Its all about learning what the signals are that our dogs are getting over threshold and they need help to cope with the situation (because their method is to go on the offensive to drive off whatever threat they are perceiving at the moment). For example, Jethro's cues are lifting his head, fixing his gaze, stiffening, growling, etc. Grisha does a good job of helping identify the signals that your dog is giving as it goes over threshold and before it goes into a full blown reaction. Knowing your dog at this level can go a long way to preventing out and out berserko moments.

Grisha Stewart has developed a set of protocols, and they are not in conflict with learning other solid dog handling skills. Also, I recommend getting familiar with Turid Rugaas' Calming Signals. These can help you read your dog for self-calming behaviours and reward those choices to strengthen them - like lip licking, shake off, head turning, relaxing body posture, sniffing the ground, etc.

Clicker/marker training has been an essential part of my work with Jethro.

Rovena>> Welcome.Your dog is doing what dogs are supposed to do. Act aggressively towards strange people. That is natural and not to worry about.

What is wrong with the picture is that his aggression is not under the framework of the "obedience relationship" he has with you.

Simply put, he can bark and attack as long as you sanction the aggression. If you do not sanction it , then he is expected to be quiet.


This is what I do to my dogs.

When some one is at my gates, they are allowed to to bark aggressively. However, once I appear and ask them to "come back to me" or "down" or "go away". I expect 100% compliance. If not I will correct them and repeat the command till they comply.

If my dog knows to down and I ask him to down, and if he does not I will correct him. Pretty soon, my dog understands that I really mean business when I ask him to "cut it out".

May be a bit old school , but that is how I do it.

Wow, thanks for the quick responses!

Hi Rovena, welcome to the boards! And good for you, adopting a shelter dog and giving him a second chance at life. Did you mean he was picked up in January 2011? So he was in the shelter for 8 months?

Hi Jenny. Doh, you're right, it's 2012 now, isn't it? I shouldn't post late in the evening. He was found as a stray at about one year in January 2011, then neutered, etc. and was in the shelter for 8 months, then I got him in August, so he's about 2 years old.

What kind of socializing/handling/training did he get at the shelter for those months? What were his conditions? It would be good to know if he had any introductory exercises, how to meet and greet, etc. How did shelter people deal with his aggression and guarding?

I've only been there twice, and I didn't know much about the place before going there, but the people are nice, and it looks like the animals are in an adequate physical environment, and I saw volunteers walking the dogs. It's H.O.P.E. shelter in Ironwood, MI, which is about an hour north of me. I was really impressed at how mentally and physically healthy Mondo seemed to be after such a long time there, so I think it's a good place.

Actually, something really cool happened between Xmas and New Year's. I wanted to give them something from Mondo and I, so I got some Kongs, which I discovered are one of the few toys Mondo can't destroy. He and I drove up there, and this old man came out of the shelter. He sees us and says, "Is that Mondo!?", and Mondo was so happy, so I let him run over there. It turns out the man was a volunteer who said he walked Mondo every day while he was there, plus he took him home sometimes, and he was the one who taught him his basic commands. (I figured somebody had taught him as a puppy, before he was lost.) Then we went in, and there were several people, and Mondo was happy to see them all, and happy to be there. We put our gift under the tree, and Mondo must have thought it was a gift exchange, because he took another one, so I got to show them how Mondo will "give" now, which he wouldn't do when I got him. It was a very cool experience.

I am not an expert, I am still learning how to handle my reactive-aggressive shelter doggie. There are others here that are far more knowledgeable than I am, but here is something that is working for me, after a year and a half of wrestling to get my dog to settle down around SEC - sudden environmental changes. I am learning the BAT method of using functional rewards and reinforcing calming responses to outside stimulations.

That sounds complicated, but I'll try...I'll have to look up what BAT is. At least I know now that yelling doesn't work, and only makes it worse.

Its all about learning what the signals are that our dogs are getting over threshold and they need help to cope with the situation (because their method is to go on the offensive to drive off whatever threat they are perceiving at the moment). For example, Jethro's cues are lifting his head, fixing his gaze, stiffening, growling, etc. Grisha does a good job of helping identify the signals that your dog is giving as it goes over threshold and before it goes into a full blown reaction. Knowing your dog at this level can go a long way to preventing out and out berserko moments.

Yes, I can see the signals when we are walking, and it does help a lot for me to tell him calmly that it's OK, the person won't get us, etc. His hackles may not go down, but he will quit acting like he wants to attack them. He doesn't seem irrational; he can recognize when I'm acting like it's OK, and my other dogs are are acting like it's OK, he realizes that it's probably OK, and settles down.

It's the times in the yard when it's already started and I hear him barking and come out to find him about to attack somebody that I want to be able to stop. (I do have it set up now that he can't get to anybody who, but if something weird ever happens, I'd like to be able to stop him.)

Grisha Stewart has developed a set of protocols, and they are not in conflict with learning other solid dog handling skills. Also, I recommend getting familiar with Turid Rugaas' Calming Signals. These can help you read your dog for self-calming behaviours and reward those choices to strengthen them - like lip licking, shake off, head turning, relaxing body posture, sniffing the ground, etc.

Yes, I read Turid's book; that was really good. I've learned so many interesting things since getting Mondo, it's really been fun.

Clicker/marker training has been an essential part of my work with Jethro..

I think marker training is amazing; I didn't know about til recently. Mondo can learn things almost instantly. I taught him to growl and/or bark on command in one session. Of course, the other drawback with marker training--then he thinks I like him to bark and growl, and "offers" me those behaviors, so I had to teach them that when he does it when I don't tell him to, I'm going to interpret that as him telling me that he wants to go outside. It was hilarious; he cheerfully growled and barked at me once, like, "See, I'm doing my trick, better give me a treat!", so I said, "Oh, you want to go outside!?", and put him outside. Then when I let him back in, he looked at me and said, "grr?" The tiniest growl in the world. I said, "Outside?", and he looked away so fast, he was just testing to see if that was really what it meant.

Thanks Jenny, and I'll research your suggestions.

Edit: (I can't see this post. I don't know why, or if anybody else can see it.)
MOD NOTE: Fixed. You were leaving out parts of the quote tags. I don't have time to fix each one right now so turned quotes into itals.

 Quote: Ramachandran Subramanian

Rovena>> Welcome.Your dog is doing what dogs are supposed to do. Act aggressively towards strange people. That is natural and not to worry about.

Hi Ramachandran. Yes, I think so; his is possibly exaggerated due to his breed and/or background.

 Quote:

What is wrong with the picture is that his aggression is not under the framework of the "obedience relationship" he has with you.

Yes, you understand what I am talking about. I think this is the problem.

 Quote:

Simply put, he can bark and attack as long as you sanction the aggression. If you do not sanction it , then he is expected to be quiet.

I would be fine with that, because I actually don't mind having a dog like him around, as long as I can call him off.

 Quote:

This is what I do to my dogs.

When some one is at my gates, they are allowed to to bark aggressively. However, once I appear and ask them to "come back to me" or "down" or "go away". I expect 100% compliance. If not I will correct them and repeat the command till they comply.

If my dog knows to down and I ask him to down, and if he does not I will correct him. Pretty soon, my dog understands that I really mean business when I ask him to "cut it out".

May be a bit old school , but that is how I do it.

No, not old school to me, that's exactly what I want to be able to do. I just don't know how to do it. Should I set up situations? I don't know if I know enough people willing to be barked at by him. That's why I was hoping that with regular obedience training, under other circumstances, would be enough. I just don't have enough experience to know; I never have really trained my dogs much, and they were never very mean at all, so I don't know if the training is good enough, it will work under the circumstances I'm describing, when he is guarding the house and already has somebody cornered.

Oh yea, I remember something else I wanted to ask: Should I take him to a basic obedience class? I'm not that interested in what the teacher would do, having discovered marker-training, but the socialization aspect of it. Or would that not be a good idea?

Thanks!

Jenny, I lost my post to you; I will recreate later. It maybe too long or something, lol, I'm not sure why it's not showing up. Thanks.



MOD NOTE: FIXED; see above.

What you need to do is work on the aggression outside of the home first - if it's less severe you can use it as a springboard for the more difficult rehabilitation.

Work on engaging him, maintaining his focus despite distractions - gradually building up the level of humans that are passing him.

Then you need to work on guests in the same way, have him ON LEASH in the yard have a person open the gate and reward focus etc.

Search desensitising on this forum - there's more advice there than I can give ya now.

Think about it this way - yes you can correct every unwanted act of aggression and you'll end up with a dog who will stay out of your reach to threaten someone. However, if you teach your dog an alternate behaviour - i.e. a guest, that means go to crate and get a treat or a guest, that means run to mum/dad and sit quietly... the dog will learn a better behaviour and it'll change the way your dog responds rather than just mask the problem with 'the right collar' - the e-collar has its place during training but it's better to redirect than correct.

Rovena, I agree with Tanith Wheeler and redirection may be a good idea. The country where I live, the circumstances and the culture necessitates a dog that has to alert and hold strangers. I will never own a dog that I think will never be aggressive to any one. But that is the world I live in.

Aggression with out permission is not a behaviour I handle with markers. I want to extinguish that behaviour of "Aggression with out permission" , just like how I train the dog to not eat his food until I say it is OK.

I can easily train the same behaviour using markers but I choose not to because in my opinion the way in which the dog learns the behaviour has an effect on how he sees me.

I am not trying to defend myself , but I do not abuse or hit or prong collar correct or e collar correct my dog every day. All it takes is to teach them the lesson when they are little and it becomes a habit.

Here you can see them understanding the rules at two months

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNr-DCSaJ0U


Coming to your problem, Your dog must know some behaviour that is incompatible with aggression to start with.

A total down with the head on the floor or a sleep lying sideways can be taught first.

With my dogs, it is always "Good boy, you did a good job, now you come back to me".

When the stranger appears, my dogs go nuts and are up on two feet barking at the stranger. I come out and say "Good puppies, good job" . "Now that is enough" or "come to me" .

Let us assume that they refuse to come back to me , I will say BAD BOY!!! (Bad boy has been associated with physical correction before). So when I say BAD BOY!!!. Previously when my dog was on a leash, and aggressively lunged towards a stray or a human, I would have given him a strong prong correction twice or thrice, each time saying "BAD BOY".

So , BAD BOY is bad news for him. It knocks the wind out of them. Once they are deflated a bit, I will call them to me and start encouraging them as they move to me. Once they are near me, I pet them a lot and praise them and tell them that they are great.


I am a novice and take my advice for what it is worth. But I cannot fathom a dog that can be genuinely aggressive(I desire that quality) and can be called off reliably with out a degree of compulsion.(ofcourse before latching on to some one, my dogs have never been allowed to latch on to any one i.e. bite)


But when I say "BAD BOY" there is no doubt in my mind or my dogs mind that I can back that verbal BAD BOY with a physical correction . My dogs clearly understand that I am giving them a chance to snap out of it when those words are uttered. If they choose to ignore, I will follow up.


I have had to do this probably only two or three times for my dogs and they got it.

Again, it is just how it worked for me take it for what it is worth.

Nowadays all I have to do is , say "good puppies" " thats enough!, come here" and they will comply. I do not even have collars for my dogs unless we are on a walk.

I love my dogs like children and spoil them and kiss them and hug them, but I do not tolerate insolence(to use a human term). Not for a fraction of a second.

Once you are in that frame of mind, your dog will sense it whether you are requesting him to knock it off or commanding him to knock it off.

I got a dog from a shelter that behaved a lot like you describe. He wasn't accepting of me when I first got him home and hid under my bed growling and acting like he'd rip anyone open that dared touch him. It lasted all night and half the day until he was willing to come out to go use the bathroom.

After that he was stuck to me like glue and desperate to please me. When I'd take him to the fenced in park we lived close to he'd run off, I'd call his name, and I could see him looking around to find me. He'd get a happy look on his face and run as fast as he could right for me. He'd lean on me, stare at me adoringly, follow me around whenever I'd get up.

Sadly I was too young and stupid to understand how to really help him. I decided to have him put to sleep after he attempted to climb the fence and attack my neighbor. He didn't mind the children, but the grown man was another story. I regret my decision even today. I'm really glad to see that you're not willing to make my mistake.

Welcome!

Quick notes:

This is a description of marker training gone awry:

The trouble with clicker-training is that Mondo immediately figured out how to game that system. For example, he gets one of my shoes and brings it to me, then puts his mouth on it like he's going to chew it, looking at me with puppy-dog eyes, saying, "See what a bad boy I am? You better give me a treat to stop me!"

I'm posting this observation because I don't want readers to see it and think that properly done marker work will be manipulated this way by a smart dog; it won't.

There are far more important issues in your O.P. I just don't want anyone to give you desensitizing or focus instructions and say "using marker training" until we clear up what has gone wrong with your marker work. (Sounds like rewards morphed into bribes.)

I'm sorry I don't have time to read the whole thread at the moment, so maybe I am duplicating --- but you have some good people already helping you.

I do just want to say that this:

"OK, this is the issue: he guards. When he guards, he becomes FEROCIOUS. He turns into a different dog, growling and snarling and lunging and snapping, actually "cornering" people in the middle of the yard, because they are too scared to move."

... should never be allowed to happen. Why is the dog loose in an area where people can enter? This cannot be allowed. This sets humans up for injury and the dog for PTS. The point is too crucial to tiptoe around it.