Those who are opposed to Ecollar use often come up with many reasons as to why they don't want to use them. For the most part those reasons are as a result of poor use of them by trainers who either use them in the same way that they use a leash, or are locked into the way they were used long ago. I think a list of those myths that we can refer people to with a URL would make it easier to get the point across that these tools are great when used properly.

Note: I didn’t write all of this, I merely adapted it and then made lots of changes and additions. Someone else wrote it and I can’t remember who it was. As soon as I find out I’ll let you know who to give the credit to.

ALSO, if any of you have any additions please put them on the forum.

1. MYTH: You must have perfect timing or be an expert trainer to use an Ecollar

FACT: No one, not the best of trainers, has perfect timing all the time. Even the best trainer can only work for so long, usually a matter of minutes, before his concentration falls off and his “perfect timing” becomes merely “good timing.”

If you have perfect timing, training progresses VERY quickly. If you have good timing, training takes a little longer. If you have so–so timing training takes longer still. If you have HORRIBLE timing, either no training occurs or the wrong training takes effect. Anyone who can train a dog with a leash and collar can use an Ecollar effectively. Even many who aren’t coordinated enough to give a correction can learn to use an Ecollar effectively.

2. MYTH: Ecollars are cruel and FRY the dog with electricity.

FACT: Modern Ecollars have settings so low they can best be described as a tingle, not a shock. This allows a trainer to use low levels that are only uncomfortable (rather than painful) to the dog. This allows the trainer to help the dog become reliable, even under distracting conditions, with virtually no force.

3. MYTH: Ecollar scramble the dog’s brain and do nerve damage.

FACT: Major veterinary universities have tested Ecollars. No evidence of any such damage has ever been found.

4. MYTH: Ecollars have a bad image.

FACT: In reality what has the worst image are methods of dog training which employ force. This means that millions of dogs are being trained entirely with cookies. Yet, most trainers believe that driven dogs will not be reliable under very distracting conditions if a correction has never been applied for ignoring a command.

People who have been training dogs for a long time may remember Ecollars of twenty years ago. They only had one very high setting. So those people may indeed have a negative image in mind. However, today's equipment has many very low settings. Often, dog-owning members of the public become intrigued when they see the happy and well-behaved dogs trained with Ecollars. Used properly an Ecollar can help the dog achieve reliability without force.

5. MYTH: Ecollars can accidentally "go off" even if you haven't touched the transmitter.

FACT: Some of the Ecollars from many years ago actually did react to interference from radio signals. Since that time, all electronic equipment has been improved and refined.

Modern Ecollars offer up to 50,000 random frequencies and do not suffer from accidental discharge.

6. MYTH: In a training group situation, it will be confusing for trainers to have some student'dogs on Ecollars, and others not.

FACT: Ecollar policies vary. In a group situation, it may be best if all newer handlers in the beginning class are on the same page, using similar equipment approved by the club. This may help the instructor understand the reactions and needs of each dog, and assist those handlers.

However, knowledgeable advanced level trainers can use an Ecollar in class without causing any confusion at all for instructors. In all likelihood, the class instructor may simply note that in the right hands, an Ecollar dog is corrected less forcefully than a dog on a choke or pinch collar. The key is that the handler should be knowledgeable about his dog and equipment.

7. MYTH: Based upon seeing an Ecollar on your dog and the fast results, beginners may rush out to buy collars and use them improperly.

FACT: Like any other piece of training equipment, such as a choke chain or pinch collar, an Ecollar can be misused. Used properly, an Ecollar can yield a happy dog who will be reliable under distracting conditions. Knowledgeable trainers recommend that beginners take lessons with trainers who are familiar with the Ecollar, or, at the least, use one of the several videos recommended for this purpose.

8. MYTH: The Ecollar will hurt or scare my dog.

FACT: With the modern methods of introducing the dog to the Ecollar this doesn’t happen. Even people who have trained dogs for years should be open to giving new methods a fair evaluation. To do that, it is often best to observe someone who uses Ecollars with modern methods.

You should not see anything forceful, harsh, painful or scary for the dog. In fact, most of the time, the demonstrating trainer may have to inform you when they have give the dog a correction, because even a trained eye may not notice.

9. MYTH: Ecollars are for punishment training only.

FACT: Years ago when collars only had one setting, some trainers used them only to punish and stop behaviors such as chasing game, digging, or fighting. Today's collars have many low settings, some so low as to feel like a tingle. Some are so low that some people can’t feel them at all. The majority of learning with modern use of Ecollars takes place during the negative reinforcement portion of the experience.

10. MYTH: Using electricity on a dog is just creepy. It reminds me of the electric chair and it will burn my dog's neck.

FACT: Remember that, like fire, electricity can be your friend or your enemy. The Ecollar settings used by trainers today are even less irritating that a static cling shock you might get separating laundry from the drier.

Introduced correctly, the dog learns that the stimulation indicates a "wrong" behavior, and he learns to "turn off" the Ecollar by substituting "correct" behavior. The dogs learn VERY quickly that it’s THEIR behavior that brings the discomfort.

Any reasonable Ecollar trainer will show you that the Ecollar will not hurt your dog. They can show you by applying the Ecollar to their own arm and yours that force and pain are not involved. Modern Ecollar use takes place at the discomfort level, not the pain level.

11. MYTH: If I use an Ecollar to train my dog, I’ll have to use it all the time.

FACT: In this regard the Ecollar is no different than any other type of training device. If you want perfect performance all the time with leash training then you’d better keep the leash on all the time. If you want perfect performance with an Ecollar then you’d better keep it on all the time. But most of us are perfectly happy with performance that’s only 99% perfect. And so after you’re dog is responding reliably to the Ecollar you can take it off until you notice a decline in performance. Then you’ll have to do some refresher training to bring the performance back up. But this is no different than with any other type of training.

12. MYTH: I want my dog to perform because he wants to, not because he afraid of getting a shock.

FACT: Many dogs will perform for this reason. However all dogs are subject to distractions. When something comes along that is a bigger distraction to him than pleasing you, he’ll do what he wants to do. If the distraction is big enough, something to eat, chasing an animal or bird, or playing with another dog, you may not be able to call him away from that distraction.

With modern uses of an Ecollar the dogs aren’t afraid of getting a shock because the stimulation levels used are so low that they aren’t painful, they’re merely uncomfortable. They’re about on the level of discomfort of a fleabite. Dogs aren’t afraid of a fleabite, it just makes them scratch.

If you’ve seen a dog that’s working out of fear of getting a shock you haven’t seen “Modern Ecollar training.”

13. MYTH: You can ruin a good dog with an Ecollar.

FACT: You can ruin a good dog with any training collar. Just about any damage that you do with an Ecollar can be fixed by a good trainer with an Ecollar

14. MYTH: Ecollar training will make my dog robotic.

FACT: Ecollar training will make your training go faster and will give results that last longer. Modern methods of Ecollar training will keep your dog happy as he works. As with any new training method (remember how your dog behaved the first couple of times you gave him a correction with a leash?) you will introduce some confusion. That will disappear in a few days as the dog learns how to shut off the stimulation.

15. MYTH: The Ecollar will cause a relationship of fear between the handler and the K9.

FACT: The Ecollar won’t do this any more than proper use of a leash and collar will create a relationship of fear. In fact, leashes are famous for establishing a relationship of conflict between dogs and handlers since, when you pop a correction on the dog he’s positive where this discomfort came from. Dogs have been known to “climb the leash” to bite the handler after getting sharp corrections. In Ecollar training the leash is just present to gently guide the dog into position while the Ecollar applies the pressure, there is no conflict between the K9 and the handler.

16. MYTH: Ecollars should not be used on “soft” or “aggressive” dogs.

FACT: With proper Ecollar training “soft” or “aggressive” dogs become more confident because they become responsible for their actions. Most “aggressive” dogs are really “defensive.” They’re afraid of being attacked and so they attack first. When their confidence increases they come to realize that they don’t have to bite first.

One of the more common myths about Ecollars is "You have to have perfect timing or be an expert to use an Ecollar." It just ain't so.

A situation that probably all of us have been through at one time or another comes to mind. You're teaching a dog the distance sit and he breaks it and goes to a down. You say, "Sit." but he doesn't comply. And so you walk the 50 yards to the dog, reach down to his tab, give him another sit command and correct him into a sit. Sound familiar??? Precise timing is necessary to train dogs right??? If so, how did the dog learn from this experience. It took many seconds to walk the 50 yards and deliver the correction. How can that be??? I thought the correction had to be within (some say three seconds) of the command or it wasn't effective???

And yet dogs learn.

Timing is important in any style or method of dog training. But it’s not as vital as some would have you believe.

First of all NO ONE has perfect timing. Or if they do it's only for a very limited time. I've watched some of the best trainers in the world and they have perfect timing for, at best, ten or fifteen minutes. After that, their concentration ebbs, and they have only "very good timing."

I like to say that if you have perfect timing, training will go VERY quickly. If you have good timing, training will occur, but not as fast, and if you have horrible timing, no training will occur, or the wrong training will result.

But there's a vast gulf between even "OK timing" and "horrible timing."

I like to use snakeproofing with an Ecollar as an example because it shows very clearly how timing is related to training.

In snakeproofing I first put the snake in a cardboard box so the dog can't see him. I want the dog to be proofed against the snake odor as well as the sight of him. I think that snake odor is less distracting than the sight of the snake, so it's easier to get the training started with that.

I measure the wind and it's effect so I know just about exactly when the dog will run into the snake scent cone.

As soon as he hits the scent and starts to investigate I hit the button on the Ecollar. If my timing is perfect, as soon as the dog gets the scent, when his level of distraction is still very low, I hit the button. That means that the Ecollar has the greatest effect on the dog.

If I'm successful and hit the button at the exact instant that the dog has gotten the scent of the snake, he'll make the association between the pain and the snake in one or two reps.

Note: I use the word pain here because I use very high levels of stim for this. A dog that gets bitten by a poisonous snake has a very good chance of dying. Since this is life or death I don't have a problem hurting a dog. I'd rather cause him a few seconds of pain than have him suffer a snake bite.

But if my timing isn't perfect, let’s say the dog is able to move about 6' up the scent cone before I hit the button, he'll still make the association, but it might take 3 or 4 reps for him to get it. He might make another association, a butterfly flitting by, for example, because it took so long for me to hit the button. If he made another association it will take a few more corrections for him to make the correct one.

But if I have HORRIBLE timing here's what might occur. The dog will catch the scent, move along the scent cone, arrive at the snake, sniff the snake, (who can't bite because his mouth is taped shut) investigate until his curiosity is satisfied, and then walk away. If I stim him as he's walking away, he'll learn that moving away from a snake brings discomfort. Where's the "safe zone???" Next to the snake.

This is an example of the wrong training occurring.

I know a few people who have perfect timing some of the time, lots and lots of people who have good timing, more with OK timing but absolutely no one who has "horrible" timing. And so training will occur even though you don't have" Perfect" timing. It just takes a bit longer.

Is there anyone here who has "horrible" timing??? If so, please sell your dog and get some goldfish.

And as far as "ruining a dog" with an Ecollar that I mentioned at the top of this post, anything that you can do with an Ecollar to mess up a dog, can be fixed in less time with an Ecollar.

And just one final off topic comment. Some people don’t like the term “proofing” as used here. They think it carries with it some degree of permanence and we all know there’s no such thing as permanence in dog training, only degrees of it. Such training as this, “poison proofing” and the like aren’t permanent. They all need occasional refreshers.

Lou has asked for additions to these Myths and Timing issues. Although I disagree with some of what has been written I don’t intend to engage in a lengthy debate. I prefer the training field to the internet and don’t expect Lou to change six pages of salesmanship. Everyone will need to judge for themselves the Fables & Falsehoods of this thread. I did notice that Lou has a disclaimer at the start, but I have a real concern about his analogy on timing; “ It just ain’t so”.

L.C."A situation that probably all of us have been through at one time or another comes to mind. You're teaching a dog the distance sit and he breaks it and goes to a down. You say, "Sit." but he doesn't comply. And so you walk the 50 yards to the dog, reach down to his tab, give him another sit command and correct him into a sit. Sound familiar??? Precise timing is necessary to train dogs right??? If so, how did the dog learn from this experience. It took many seconds to walk the 50 yards and deliver the correction. How can that be??? I thought the correction had to be within (some say three seconds) of the command or it wasn't effective???"

This example demonstrates a real lack of understanding about dog training or is an attempt to misinterpret the principles of chaining events and the timing of reinforcements to suit the arguments for the use of an e-collar. The mistakes being made by the handler in this example may be attributed to the dog as misbehavior. But a similar example is used in Konrad Most’s book, Chapter 1 Basic Principles, to illustrate the errors being made by the handler. http://www.leerburg.com/most.htm

Now, if you are at a distance and the dog breaks the sit and goes down and you say “sit” and he doesn’t comply, then you have to go back to him. But the rule is clear; You never go to your dog and correct him; You never call the dog to you and correct him. And in this example you walk back, reach down to his tab, and give him another sit command and correct him. Bad Timing; wrong. “If so, how did the dog learn from this experience” my concern would be what did the dog learn. Yes, it took many seconds to walk back and deliver the correction, so what did the dog learn???? Lou, if you don’t know the answer to this question you should be reading Most. You need to wait a period of time (3 seconds or more) so the dog does not make an improper association with your returning to him; and yes, the timing of reinforcements needs to be made within 1 second or less. ( Most pg 21 Whitney pg123 Pryor pg 25). Dog training is basics, re-training is a bitch. Timing is “Vital”.

Before using E-collars everyone should have a solid understanding of K9 Psychology and the Timing of Reinforcements. Very good abilities of anticipation are necessary for the proper use of E-collars. Buyer beware…………….you may have an expensive tool collecting dust in your closet.

I am not opposed to the use of E-collars; I have several electronic stimulators myself. And they are great tools when used judiciously. No, I don't own goldfish………

Thanks a lot for a great start on this topic. I want to read more about it. I had one trainer who used his e-collar to help my dog tighten her outside turn (to the right) during the heel because she always went very wide. Took only two times and it was corrected.

So I've always wondered how much more we could do with it, but I've always had reservations about how difficult it would be to use and if my novice use of it would do psychological damage. My GSD is on the soft side a bit as far as level of correction needed but she's a fast learner. I think some of our training problems have come from me. Reminds me of my college microbiology professor who said, "If the lecture is confusing, it's probably the lecturer that's confused." That could be pretty applicable in dog training, don't you think?? :-)

Your article here has already helped me a lot. I've read some basic info. on e-collars, and plan to read more and get a video before ever buying one. I want to have it all figured out before I do it, and I'm enthused so far about what we would be able to accomplish with it. I very much appreciate all the help that all of you good people offer us.

Thanks, Lou, for your email to me.
Pam

I don't know why people are afraid to use an e-collar for fear of "damaging the dog" but they will go out and jerk on a pinch collar until their arm is sore??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Alan wrote: Lou, if you don’t know the answer to this question you should be reading Most.

LC: I’ve read Most Alan. What’s your point? This is the sort of post that starts wars. You’re of course, free to disagree with me but I don’t think I need your reading list, your smugness or your rudeness. Such statements as “demonstrates a real lack of understanding about dog training” and “is an attempt to misinterpret the principles of chaining events and the timing of reinforcements” do nothing to further your side of this discussion. They’re just attacks on me, not my training. If you want to criticize my post to the list, which BTW has been up for about 7 months without anyone disagreeing, you’re free to. But please try to stick to the discussion without the personal attack.

Alan wrote: You need to wait a period of time (3 seconds or more) so the dog does not make an improper association with your returning to him; and yes, the timing of reinforcements needs to be made within 1 second or less. ( Most pg 21 Whitney pg123 Pryor pg 25). Dog training is basics, re-training is a bitch. Timing is “Vital”.

LC: I’ve give corrections later than three seconds after the behavior, as described in training the distance sit and the dog learned the distance sit. He didn’t associate the correction with my return, or he would have complained to me. Timing of reinforcement often occurs more than once second after the behavior and still learning occurs. I certainly don’t advocate exceeding those time limits but if you do it once in awhile, the sky doesn’t fall and learning still occurs.

LC: If timing was “Vital” as you say those people who don’t have perfect timing, those people who violate the “three second” and “one second” rules would never get their dogs trained. But they do. I’ve never said that timing isn’t important, it’s just that perfect timing isn't “vital, crucial, or essential" for training to occur. And, as I've pointed out, no one has perfect timing for more than a few minutes at a time.

LC: As my post said, the only serious problem that occurs is for those people who have “horrible timing.” For the rest, training just takes a bit longer.

Alan wrote: Before using E-collars everyone should have a solid understanding of K9 Psychology and the Timing of Reinforcements. Very good abilities of anticipation are necessary for the proper use of E-collars. Buyer beware…………….you may have an expensive tool collecting dust in your closet.

LC: By your rule, only a very few people would be using Ecollars or any other dog training tool successfully. They’d have to read a ton of books, attend a couple of dozen seminars and spend hundreds of hours in learning “how to anticipate.” I regularly take people who know next to nothing about dogs or dog training and teach them to use Ecollars effectively. With my pet clients after three to four lessons, they’re able to tell me how they’d train the next behavior that they want the dog to perform; and the next, and the next. I offer unlimited house calls to my pet dog clients. Rarely do they need me to return more than three times (for a total of four house calls) and only once have I been back five times. They’re not dog training experts, they haven’t read Most or anyone else for that matter, yet they can use an Ecollar and get their dog to perform acts they want.

Joe Noble wrote: I don't know why people are afraid to use an e-collar for fear of "damaging the dog" but they will go out and jerk on a pinch collar until their arm is sore???

LC: I’m surprised at you Joe. Don’t you know that Ecollars can only be used by “experts” who have read everything under the sun about dog training but pinch collars can be used by anyone who can afford to buy one?

And finally, Pam, thanks for the kind words.

Lou, You are absolutely right, the discussions should focus on issues and not individuals. Yes, I hope people will read, investigate, attend seminars, and spend time learning “how to anticipate” because we have disagreed. The reading list was posted as a reference for anyone interested in researching these issues. Timing can determine what and how something is learned. Timing determines if the dog perceives negative reinforcement as punishment.

LC: I regularly take people who know next to nothing about dogs or dog training and teach them to use Ecollars effectively. With my pet clients after three to four lessons, they’re able to tell me how they’d train the next behavior that they want the dog to perform; and the next, and the next. I offer unlimited house calls to my pet dog clients. Rarely do they need me to return more than three times (for a total of four house calls) and only once have I been back five times. They’re not dog training experts, they haven’t read Most or anyone else for that matter, yet they can use an Ecollar and get their dog to perform acts they want.

Oh, Yes! There's hope for me! Do you make house calls in Kansas?!

Seriously, I've been looking at the Tritronics Sport 60. I'm getting more and more enthused about this. I really think this just might be the ticket. I just have to convince myself to part with the money. If I get one, do you agree with whatever training instructions come with it? I'm still going to look at the info. you referred me to. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Pamela, I would recommend the dogtra line. I bought the nc50 model from Lou and I think for the money it can't be beat. The biggest difference between the tri and the dogtra is the rheostat dial on the dogtra. Instead of having to click into either 1-2-3-4-5 you turn a smooth dial up or down, the settings are almost limitless on the Dogtra. Good luck <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Pamela wrote: Oh, Yes! There's hope for me! Do you make house calls in Kansas?!

LC: LOL. Well not quite but If you want to set up a seminar for me I’ll be glad to come out. Write privately for details.

Pamela wrote: Seriously, I've been looking at the Tritronics Sport 60. I'm getting more and more enthused about this. I really think this just might be the ticket. I just have to convince myself to part with the money. If I get one, do you agree with whatever training instructions come with it? I'm still going to look at the info. you referred me to.

LC: Pamela I’d advise against the Sport 60 for a couple of reasons. One is that it only has 6 levels of stimulation available. (Twelve if you’re one of those who think that the Nick and continuous give two different levels, I’m not among that crew.) There’s a good chance that you’ll find that one level is below a dog’s perception and the next level makes him vocalize in pain.

LC: The instructions that come with the Ecollars will get you started but they’re not perfect. I’d suggest that you take a look at the “Three Action Introduction” videotape from Dobbs. I think Ed sells it. Another good tape is the "Guidance System" by Donn Yarnall.

LC: As Joe Noble mentions I’m a fan of the Dogtra line because of the continuous nature of their stimulation. It’s like a dimmer switch on a light. You can dial EXACTLY the level of stimulation that the dog needs. Dogtra used to have a bad reputation for reliability but that changed about a year ago, when they replaced their entire quality control and production staffs.

LC: BTW Joe has the 1100NC model. I don’t know where he gets "nc50" from! LOL.