What are the incremental steps to teach a dog with an ecollar to leave livestock alone.

do you shock them when they get close to the livestock so they think the livestock is "hot", so you release when they turn from livestock??? I have no idea, although I have heard you dont have to be an expert trainer to teach avoidance.

Regarding your last statement. Go read the list of myths I posted here. Especially look at the one about needing to be an expert of having perfect timing to use an Ecollar.

http://www.leerburg.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=000005

Here’s something I wrote that may help you. It’s a work in progress so constructive criticism is fine. It's intended for the SAR folks but you can adapt it to your needs fairly easily. I just blasted it out so it's pretty rough.

In this example I use a cat, but in your situation you can use a cow.

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CRITTERING

Many people use a “leave-it” command when they see their dog start to chase game. The problem with this is that many chases begin out of sight of the handler. If the handler doesn’t’ see the chase start, he can’t give the dog the command to stop. By the time the handler realizes that his dog is chasing game, the dog may be out of earshot and won’t hear the leave-it command or the recall.

I use a form of behavior modification so that the dog doesn’t even start the chase. He sees the prey animal, realizes that chasing it is uncomfortable and just goes back to work. No one, except the dog, even knows that a prey animal was present.

There are three components to a chase of an animal. The first and least distracting is the scent of the animal. The dog only knows this if it has had a chase and makes the association between the chase and the sight of the animal. The second is the sight of the prey animal. The third is the chase itself.

If a dog has had a successful chase, that is he has caught and killed a prey animal that he’s chased it may be very difficult to break the dog of chasing that animal. I’d suggest that if your dog fits into this category you use the scent of the animal first in the behavior modification scheme. Since this is relatively rare, I’ll cover it last.

First let’s discuss the dog that has had a few chases but hasn’t as yet made a kill while doing so. If you’ve done the recall work properly, you can call him away from the animal if he sees it or even if he is actively chasing it.

But we want the dog to do the work himself, not in obedience to a command, for reasons stated earlier.

To do this you’ll need a cooperative prey animal. Some are easier to get than others. Elk and moose are obviously fairly difficult to get but there are ways around that. A cat works well and they are fairly easy to get. You can’t use the cat that lives with the dog, it has to be one that he’ll want to chase. You can trap a wild one or borrow one from a neighbor. I know people that have adopted a cat for a day and then have taken him back when they were done with the training, but I wouldn’t advocate that. For a cat I recommend a leash and a harness unless you know that he’ll walk well in just a collar.

The Process

Imagine yourself on a football field. You’re going to need an assistant who will walk the cat (or other prey animal) back and forth on the “other” 0 - yard line. You and your dog, wearing a buckle collar and his Ecollar will go to the other 0 - yard line, 100 yards away. (Actually you can probably start on the 70 or 80 yard line but this will give extra insurance for those highly driven prey dogs.)

It’s important that your assistant keep the cat moving. A cat that’s holding still may not be of much interest to your dog. Keeping him moving at the same pace and at the same distance provides a constant distraction to your dog and makes the training go easier. If the cat stops and starts the distraction level changes and the training is harder.

You’re going to hook a 6' leash up to the D-ring on the buckle collar and lead him back across the field at your own 0 yard line, 100 yards from the dog. Don’t give any commands just direct him gently with the leash. You don’t want him focussed on you and if you give him any commands that might happen. If he doesn’t see the cat by himself, have your assistant make some small noise, a whistle perhaps, to draw the dog’s attention to him and the cat. More than likely at this distance your dog will not show any interest in the cat. That’s perfectly alright.

You’re going to walk from sideline to sideline with the dog. Have your assistant make the noise a couple of times to draw the dog’s attention. Don’t have him call the dog’s name, just draw the dog’s attention.

If the dog shows no interest in the cat, next time you get to one of the sidelines, walk diagonally across the field; such that when you get to the other sideline you’re at your 10 yard line. That is, you’ve moved ten yards closer to the cat. Walk back and forth a couple of times at that distance. Have your assistant make a noise to draw the dog’s attention if he doesn’t notice the cat, just as before.

If you make two passes at the 90-yard distance and the dog doesn’t show any interest in the cat, close in another ten yards, just as before. Walk from the sideline diagonally across the field so that when you get to the other sideline, you wind up ten yards closer, at a distance of 80 yards from the cat.

At some point, as you get closer to the cat the dog will notice him. He’ll give the cat “the stare” that always precedes a chase. He’s sizing up the cat, wondering how much fun the chase will be, how fast he’ll have to run, how long the chase will last, and other doggie thoughts. When you see “the stare” you’re going to press the button on the Ecollar and step back, pulling the dog away from the cat. Make sure that you step back, keeping the distance between you and the dog a constant, rather than just pulling him away from the cat and closing the distance between the dog and you. If you just pull him towards you, you’re reinforcing the recall, not teaching crittering.

As soon as he takes a few steps away from the cat in response to the leash pressure and looks away from the cat, release the button.

Walk back and forth a few times at that same distance. If the dog gives the cat “the stare” again, repeat as above. It’s very important that you walk backwards to move the dog, rather than pull the dog towards you. Again, as he goes with the leash pressure and looks away from the cat, release the button.

Get closer to the cat as described above, by moving diagonally across the field. This turns up the distraction level very gently and slowly, allowing you to control it.

As you get closer the dog will again give you “the stare.” Repeat as often as is necessary.

The leash should always be slack for this until you’re actually pulling the dog away from the cat. You’ll probably have to coax the dog to get him to walk, but don’t give him any commands. This is between the dog and the cat, you have no part in this confrontation.

What you’re after is getting the dog to think that giving the cat “the stare” brings discomfort. If your timing and leash manipulation with this is good you’ll probably have to give the dog 5-7 stimulations as you close on the cat. With most dogs I’ve been able to get them to walk within 2' – 3' of the cat on the first time doing this. Some dogs have been able to step over the cat and ignore him after one session of this.

With some dogs it may take several sessions to get him to see the cat, and then ignore him for the rest of the session, without it taking any more stimulations to get this.

A lot of how successful this is depends on the dog’s history in chasing prey animals. If he’s had success it just takes more repetitions. It WILL work.

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Nice post Lou!

That was a very nice post. I have 1 question... without the e collar and leash will the dog still show avoidance? My shepherd hated/loved cats when I first got her and I had 3 of them. She lived with them for about 1 1/2 years and never did any physical harm to them but was ALWAYS driven to chase them. Inside the house she would chase them and outside the chase was even better. Can she still be broken of chasing cats the way you describe? I am very hesitant to bring her to friend houses who have cats. she has never hurt one (to my knowledge anyways). Thanks, Wendi

How successful this is depends on quite a few factors. How driven is the dog to chase the cats? How successful has the dog been in chasing cats? If he’s had a kill and enjoyed it, it’s VERY difficult to get him to stop completely, on his own.

Whether or not the training holds when the Ecollar isn’t on depends on how well the training was done. Obviously if your dog is high in the “difficult” areas, he’ll need more work. But it can be quite successful. I rescued a dog a few years ago that hated other dogs. They were there for him to kill. After I worked with him I would leave him at home with my other two dogs, running free. There was never a problem. He never learned to play with them, he’d only play with me, but he tolerated them for several years until he passed away.

Is there some reason that you don’t want the Ecollar on the dog all the time? I’ve never understood the reason to remove them unless you’re participating in some sport that requires it.

If the dog is always wearing it you can always correct. Consistency in training, that means always being able and willing to give a correction, is the key to consistency in performance. Ecollars make the old trainers saw, “Never give a command you’re not willing to enforce” quite easy.

Thanks for posting this, Lou--especially when I needed it most!

My young dog recently took off after a rabbit. There are thousands of rabbits and squirrels in the town where I live, and so I want to break her of this habit NOW.

One big question: What level of stimulation should you be giving the dog in this exercise? Pardon my ignorance--I know nothing about e-collars.

Pete Felknor

thanks abunch lou, I couldnt ask for anymore granularity in an answer,

does it matter if the dog has been successful in the "hunt" previously if it wansnt the livestock I will be training on?

I cant leave the ecollars on the dogs because when they play they tug on the collars specifically.

VanCamp,

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