Hello,

My fiancee and I adopted a 6.5-year old cattle dog in January as our first dog, and realize now that we knew little about dogs. Unfortunately, we did all the wrong things when we took him into our home, missed or misread all the acts of dominance, so his behavior and attitude have not been not ideal. Latte is an intelligent but hard dog that is very bossy and / or dominant. We bought the Establishing Pack Structure DVD and the Basic Obedience DVD, and have finished watching the first one. We have started the groundwork, and he has now been confined to the crate for a two weeks and a half weeks, and I was hoping we could get some feedback on his progress and our method.

His dog reactivity was our biggest issue that prompted us to try out Mr. Frawley's groundwork method. Unfortunately, he has become conditioned over these months to be dog reactive due to many high intensity dog encounters in our apartment building that we either could not or did not avoid out of ignorance and did not consistently or correctly correct him. We live in an urban complex so many days we can't get out of the building or even our floor without coming across a dog. Its gotten to the point where he goes on high alert when entering the lobby or elevator because dogs have literally walked into his face unexpectedly. Prior to being with us, he had not been exposed to many dogs for about 1-2 years due to owner circumstances.

Now that he's been crated, we have seen tremendous strides on his dog reactivity. If we are NOT in the apartment or its immediate surrounding (dog area, sidewalk outside, etc.) he shows mostly avoidance behavior or will show little reactivity (sometimes with a corrective tug from us). This has made walks more pleasant instead of dreadful. His avoidance behavior usually transpires in the form of his pulling to the side for a pee which usually I allow because it seems its better than stressing him out. Our walks have been very successful usually, unless he had poor energy from the get-go (handler mistake from not being able to wait all day for him to settle!). Even in a few unexpected incidents, he either didn't react too terribly or accepted my lead to keep moving.

My fiancee wants to progress forward now by letting him out of the crate tethered near us as Mr. Frawley describes. However, Im more wary of whether we have made solid progress as being his packleaders. I had the following questions:

How do we know if he has accepted us as the leaders? Right now, if I'm home all day, he will stay silent almost all day. However, there is something about both of us being home that sets him off, esp. if one of us has been home and the other gets home. He will bark, and sometimes even when he sees the leash. This demanding behavior was his attitude before we began groundwork. Or if both of us are home and just getting ready or relaxing in the morning, he will whine and cry sometimes for hours. Does this mean he needs to stay in the 24/7 crate phase longer? If so, should we make it a point now to train him specifically to be calm in the crate?

We have still been giving him commands during this time. For example, we make him wait to be be invited in and out of most doors, make him sit after pooping and make him sit at crosswalks, etc. We will also correct him for dog reactivity, and give him little tugs if he pulls on the leash (similar to a brief clip on the Pack Structure DVD). We also make him sit or lay down before we open the crate. Sometimes in that case I can tell from his actions that he feels imposed on. Does this sound too imposing?

As mentioned, sometimes intense dog encounters in or around the building have been unavoidable, such as stepping out of an elevator and another dog being outside. Should we be correcting him in those instances for being aggressive? I realize now that its partially fear-based and that those encounters in the building are too intense. On the other hand, I also sense that he does know we expect him not to react, so I have still corrected him. We use a dominant dog collar right now.

Any thoughts in general on whether we should stay at this phase of 24/7 crating would be appreciated.

Some final notes: Latte has had 3 seizures since we've had him, and was hit by a car which the previous owner lied about, and they have since stopped responding to me after I emailed about the seizures. He has minor hip issues from the hit by car but usually its not an issue and he can run just fine. We've been committed to trying to work things out and giving him a happy life with us because I would not want him to be re-homed with these potential issues. But being somewhat of a typical cattle dog, this has been a lot more work than me and my fiancee would have ever thought.. we have learned so much in just these few months. The leerburg articles and DVDs are the first resources that has been able to help us produce results.

Thanks in advance for any guidance to our situation. I may come back with a few more questions =)

Welcome!

Sounds like he is fortunate!


I think these answers will help us:


"Now that he's been crated, we have seen tremendous strides on his dog reactivity. If we are NOT in the apartment or its immediate surrounding (dog area, sidewalk outside, etc.) he shows mostly avoidance behavior or will show little reactivity (sometimes with a corrective tug from us). "

What exactly is his reaction "in the apartment or its immediate surrounding (dog area, sidewalk outside, etc."?



"Even in a few unexpected incidents, he either didn't react too terribly or accepted my lead to keep moving. "

Please describe "didn't react too terribly ."


"Now that he's been crated, we have seen tremendous strides on his dog reactivity. If we are NOT in the apartment ... "

How does he encounter dogs IN the apartment? Guest dogs, hearing dogs in the hallway, what? Or do you mean in the building?


"We have still been giving him commands during this time. For example, we make him wait to be be invited in and out of most doors, make him sit after pooping and make him sit at crosswalks, etc. We will also correct him for dog reactivity, and give him little tugs if he pulls on the leash (similar to a brief clip on the Pack Structure DVD). We also make him sit or lay down before we open the crate. Sometimes in that case I can tell from his actions that he feels imposed on."

How?


"As mentioned, sometimes intense dog encounters in or around the building have been unavoidable, such as stepping out of an elevator and another dog being outside. Should we be correcting him in those instances for being aggressive? "

Aggressive how? Does he lunge? Growl? What?


"We use a dominant dog collar right now."

How?


"Latte is an intelligent but hard dog that is very bossy and / or dominant."

What does hard mean to you?

By dominant or bossy, do you mean the whining when you are both home? That's not really bossy, IMO, unless there's more.

Or what (in detail)?




How much exercise is he getting?

Is it possible to get from the ground floor to your apartment (for now) without having another dog enter the elevator? (Stairs? Or maybe you are just one floor up, so you could wait for a dog-free elevator and no one would enter with a dog?)

 Quote: Ellen Kao

How do we know if he has accepted us as the leaders? Right now, if I'm home all day, he will stay silent almost all day. However, there is something about both of us being home that sets him off, esp. if one of us has been home and the other gets home. He will bark, and sometimes even when he sees the leash. This demanding behavior was his attitude before we began groundwork. Or if both of us are home and just getting ready or relaxing in the morning, he will whine and cry sometimes for hours. Does this mean he needs to stay in the 24/7 crate phase longer? If so, should we make it a point now to train him specifically to be calm in the crate?

Hi. Welcome to the forum.

You guys are well on your way to being good pack leaders. The things you're doing are mostly on-track, and other experienced dog people will be weighing in about some of your specific issues.
I would leave him in the crate until his behavior improves. If you don't care for his attitude while crated, and you offer him more freedom, he'll devalue your expectations about crate behavior. Work on the suggestions that Ed makes about improving crate behavior.
Your dog has had a rough life to-date, but strong leadership will improve that. It is your job to impose on him, and he will learn that he can make things better through compliance. My dog gives me those pathetic looks when I make her wait, but she gets very happy when released, so the imposition is immediately forgotten about. Most importantly, she gets what she seeks only through compliance.
I wouldn't fret about his joy at a family member getting home, or wanting to go for a walk. The leash can be a valuable tool(reward) for training him to comply. I would make him settle when he gets excited, then reward him with a walk when he settles.

Latte is very fortunate that you guys have welcomed him into your world. Kudos to you.

Congrats to Latte! Sounds like he got lucky.

Being around cattle dogs all my life, I was always told that they are hardheaded. Now I recognize that they really just had no established pack leader so they stepped in to the job. With the little history you provided, sounds like Latte had to be the pack leader with the previous owner. As soon as you have "proven yourself", he will relax and trust you to take care of everything. I imagine he will be relieved.

Keep in mind that you have a working breed and as such they need both mental and physical exercise and lots of it.

These are awesome dogs and you are in for loads of fun. Keep up the good work!

Stepping up to leadership can be hard to do if your other dogs thought of you as leader without effort on your part.
Cattle dogs need jobs and rules. They are incredibly smart.
That "face" of being imposed on is one I know. It soon will move to acceptance. The "pouty look away", likely you are changing things he thinks he knows and it is rocking his world.
Once he gets confidence in your direction it will stop.
I would recommend the NILIF as essential, no "free love". Marker training, cheese in your pocket at all times, "YES!" and treat for everything good.

Cattle dogs also need a ton of exercise, mental and physical. Teach him to bring his bowl, sit, down, all that basic stuff. Teach him to "find it", hiding stuff in your apartment.

I don't have a cattle dog, but do have a Border Collie that asks "why?" a lot and can be reactive.

My dog wants to be a team player, but he's willing to wing it when he doesn't have clear leadership. So I need to be clear and consistent about how the whole team thing works. And I need to be a capable leader. When I'm meeting his needs, he is an amazing little working partner with tons of "try" in him.

It did take about 1.5 years of consistent work for that whole partnership feeling to develop. He did frustrate me and at times I wondered what I had gotten myself into. But
today I can't imagine my life without him.

And I'll echo what the others have said - they do need lots of mental exercise along with the physical exercise. Figure out what you want him to do and start teaching him. Give him something to focus on and work that little brain. M dog LOVES marker training and is very good at figuring what he needs to do to earn his reward.

I appreciate the feedback from everyone. Here is some additional input in response to Connie on our dog:

What exactly is his reaction "in the apartment or its immediate surrounding (dog area, sidewalk outside, etc."?

His reactivity at its worse has been explosive barking, lunging, twisting around on the leash, basically acting like he really wanted to attack the other dog.

"Even in a few unexpected incidents, he either didn't react too terribly or accepted my lead to keep moving. "

Please describe "didn't react too terribly ."

Example: an unfenced dog ran up to the edge of their property barking as we passed when I had not been paying attention. My dog barked back but did not resist as I continued walking besides looking behind him. In the past he would have been lunging on his leash and trying to get at the dog. Another example: earlier today on the bike trail we came across an offleash pitbull. As I started to speak harshly to the other dog and decided whether to turn back, Latte pulled to the side and pooped, so there was no reactivity besides avoidance.

"Now that he's been crated, we have seen tremendous strides on his dog reactivity. If we are NOT in the apartment ... "

How does he encounter dogs IN the apartment? Guest dogs, hearing dogs in the hallway, what? Or do you mean in the building?

Oops, yes I mean in the building. We've turned around the corner and run into huskies before, walked into elevators with dogs in it, or he will hear the jingling on keys/dog leash from a distance.

"We have still been giving him commands during this time. For example, we make him wait to be be invited in and out of most doors, make him sit after pooping and make him sit at crosswalks, etc. We will also correct him for dog reactivity, and give him little tugs if he pulls on the leash (similar to a brief clip on the Pack Structure DVD). We also make him sit or lay down before we open the crate. Sometimes in that case I can tell from his actions that he feels imposed on."

How?

When I tell him to sit in the crate before opening the door, he will do so with a slight sideways turn of his head, often accompanied with a soft huff of displeasure, etc. Or when we ask him to sit at the curbside he wont sit right away until he feels the leash about to correct him. Also I suppose from knowing him I can pick up on his attitude through his body language.


"As mentioned, sometimes intense dog encounters in or around the building have been unavoidable, such as stepping out of an elevator and another dog being outside. Should we be correcting him in those instances for being aggressive? "

Aggressive how? Does he lunge? Growl? What?

Lunging, growling, snarling, as mentioned, basically looking like he wants to tear them up. It even happens if the other dog is laying down. A couple new behaviors developed, too since we've had him - after about a couple or so months of dog reactivity, we noticed his hackles will raise which never happened before, at first just near his shoulders, and at some point all the way down his back. Also, shortly before that behavior developed, I also noticed that he began kicking his hind feet after pooping, usually around the apartment, which could be dominance

"We use a dominant dog collar right now."

How?

We use it to lift him and cut off his air when he shows aggression to dogs. Now this is usually mostly when we are unable to catch him in time in and around the building.

"Latte is an intelligent but hard dog that is very bossy and / or dominant."

What does hard mean to you?

To me, hard means he doesn't back down if corrected, is relatively unfazed by corrections, that he knows what is expected but will refuse to do it and is not afraid standing up to us by refusing to obey. At times we have given him simple commands, like go to bed, or lay down and he won't obey. I ran into that situation one time, and as soon as I offered a treat, he immediately went to bed.

By dominant or bossy, do you mean the whining when you are both home? That's not really bossy, IMO, unless there's more.

Or what (in detail)?

No, I see the whining more like crying and wanting to be out here with us. Bossy means when he has barked at us in the last two weeks to let him out (vs whining) of the crate, such as when we start to approach with a leash. Bossy also means when he barks at us or other people, to keep giving him treats (usually when we are out somewhere with others and trying to keep him occupied) or sometimes when he doesn't like a situation that we have put him in and wants it to change. By the latter I mean situations that make him uncomfortable or perhaps he doesnt feel in control. For example, he would stand there and bark at no one in particular when hanging out with my sister's dogs whom he is familiar with in my parent's basement, probably because his limits were being pushed and even though he was not aggressive to them, he did not enjoy the new situation. Also, when we take a walk on a bike trail and we stop to sit on the swings, we tied him nearby but he would bark nonstop at us.

Other bossy or dominant behaviors: he is generally not too affectionate that we have seen, but will demand petting and if we oblige at that time he will immediately begin to push against our leg and try to get under our legs (if seated) to lift us, or even crawl under our legs if we are crouched, etc. When we mistakenly gave him new toys constantly and played with him, he would bring toys over on his own and shove them at us. If we played fetch, he would bark at us for not immediately throwing it. Its not a playful bark, its a demand. His general play style was pushy and rough. He is extremely food driven but doesnt bother to have a soft bite when he is excited or anxious, so it hasn't been fun getting my hands knawed on at times. I tried to train him a bit on the soft bite at home, but outside he would lose the inhibition under stress. Also, since he has been with us he has shown signs of space resource seeking. He would refuse to leave the bedroom, viciously attack the door and once bit my fiancee hard enough to cause bruising on his hand when he reached for his collar to get him out of the bedroom. Back then I thought he must've had a bad experience with a door shutting on him. However, he knows very well now not to go in the bedroom and the last time he came in, he again refused to leave.

Other behaviors.. he would bark and jump on us when my fiancee and I hug each other. The day after we took him home he tried to hump both of us (hasnt done so since). He likes his butt rubbed which we were told is also dominance.

How much exercise is he getting?

We walk him about about 1.5 - 3 hours a day, I would say usually 3-6+ miles per day. I've been using a mobile app to track my walks with him. He does have TONS of energy but doesnt always seem to like running with me.

Is it possible to get from the ground floor to your apartment (for now) without having another dog enter the elevator? (Stairs? Or maybe you are just one floor up, so you could wait for a dog-free elevator and no one would enter with a dog?)

Stairs would be rough at 5 flights. My fiancee has been taking him down to the garage level which avoids the lobby and any dogs waiting out there. I can try that more consistently. The last time I went through the garage another owner with a reactive dog was taking the same route.

Appreciate all the feedback. In response to some other feedback:

His overall attitude on walks seems to have improved. Oftentimes he will walks somewhat behind us and doesnt pull as much to mark everything. For the first time his ears actually lay back and his tail is straight down so there have been marked changes in his appearance, albeit not consistently. Some walks he is still vigilant and unbalanced from the start (perhaps from dog encounter), staring at anything like rabbits and people (trying not to talk him out for walks during this state)

We did try to implement NILIF tosome degree prior to crating, but by then I think we messed up our foundation too much by then, so the crate a new beginning. We will do NILIF when he earns his way out, and proceed to marker / obedience training when the time is more right. I accidentally jumped right in to teaching him many commands and tricks, but i think it may have added to his demanding nature (he lives for food). He did not seem to enjoy training oftentimes. I also took him to obedience class that did absolutely nothing except walk him into a high level of distraction; we dropped out after a few weeks.

Thank you for all the input. It sounds like it would be safer to keep Latte in there a bit longer to let his new position sink in.

Well, he's bred to move cattle, to boss cattle. If he backs down he gets hurt. Mine is 26 lbs and moves cattle all day.

JMO, but I think you're reading a lot of dominance into his behaviors when quite possibly it's not nearly as much as you think. He sounds like he could be confused, scared or just generally unsure so he's just trying things that come natural to him.

A lot of what you said would describe my dog. He's a working bred Border Collie and would work cattle/sheep all day long and not back down. He barks at me sometimes, it's just his way of communicating. I just tell him to go lay down. Then a a cople minutes after he lays down I reward him for obeying.

Consider the upheaval in his life since coming to you. He went from dealing with no dogs to dealing with them at every corner. That can really stress some dogs out. He could be thinking that the best defense is a good offense and therefore the reactions. No, they're still not appropriate, but it's something for you to consider in your approach. I would do my best to keep him away from other dogs and stand in between him and the other dog when there's no other way. Carry a high value reward with you (hot dog bits, string cheese) and highly reward the behavior you want.

Also, how do you train him? How do you know he understands? Dogs don't conceptualize well - i.e., just because he knows "sit" when you're standing in the living room when you've got treats doesn't mean he understands "sit" when you're in your bedroom sitting on the edge of your bed without treats.

FWIW, my dogs also have a rough play style. It's just their nature. So I control the games and use toys for training tools, bring a toy out and go through obedience routines then play. With the barking, teach him that quiet is rewarded with what he wants, teach him how to earn why he wants with proper behavior.

What are the top 3-4 behaviors that you want from him? How have you gone about training them? If you need help, we can certainly help you out with ideas in truing them!! I think it's always a good idea to try to focus on figuring out how to train and highly reward what we want more than try to extinguish what we don't want. Your dog focuses on what you focus on.