I'll get another cup of coffee and ramble on. Ahhh, there. Where was I?

Oh, I remember, I wanted to post about 'advice.' And an observation or two on advice, through these tired older eyes.

I'm struck by requests for advice that are plumb loaded with what amounts to preconditions. Or the request for advice that describes all the experience the asking party has, and how all that experience doesn't seem to apply in the topic instance. Or the individual seeking information who then argues that the advice given won't apply because, yadda, yadda, yadda

Then there is the individual who asks for advice with a genuinely open mind. One willing to read and consider freely given free advice for what it is.

We all come fully equipped with biases. One of my unfortunate biases has to do with preconception that, when it comes to a dog's behavior, the optimum place to start training is at the top end of the leash.

As an aside, I took one of my mutts to the vet for a check-up, and the vet I have gone to for quite a few years wasn't available, so one of her colleagues, who specialized as an animal behaviorist, drew the short straw. I own up to a certain level of skepticism in re an animal behaviorist but I figured a vet is a vet is a vet when it comes to a simple check up. Silly me. I'd never witnessed a vet having an I'm OK, you're OK interaction with a dog before. Any way, I was there as caregiver and wanted to know if there should be anything I should be doing. I was asking for advice.

A part of the advice had to do with a visit or two to evaluate the dog, though not physically. I asked what occasioned the advice, and was told that evaluations took a bit of time. I asked what symptoms were expressed, and the answer was so vague I had trouble understanding her concerns. In the end, I declined. So I rejected advice. Upon reflection, I wonder if it had to do with a bias in re behaviorists.

I digress. Advice is an interesting circumstance. We get it, we give it. Some times we listen to it with closed ears and some times we seriously consider it. And some times we feel threatened by advice, perhaps because we have to consider the role we play in taking advice, the changes we might have to make in ourselves or the way we conduct ourselves. After all, we are all reasonably perfect.

I have no clue where I was trying to take this thing but I think it has to do with asking a question and then listening to or reading the answer, and seriously considering the advice before we reject it or accept it in whole or part. And I wonder why a person would ask a question and then argue with the person offering advice.

I keep looking at the dog, asleep at my feet, and wonder if it would benefit from some couch time, God knows I would.

Now, this is really a bad read. Time for another cup of coffee.

i'll give ya some advice mike . . .

switch to decaf .


just kidding of course , can't wait to see where this thread goes .

myself , i try to keep my mind wide open both when giving and receiving advice . ever since the advent of the interweb , it has never been easier to ask for and offer advice , but the one element missing is the face to face , human contact aspect .

seeing the person , how they handle their dog(s) , reading their body language , experiencing their actual living conditions and the circumstances under which they are raising their dog(s) tells so much about each individuals' situation ; observations you just can't make over the internet .

being a bit of a videophile ( !? ) myself , i welcome the use of video by advice seekers to help illustrate their experiences , however issues arise when the production values don't accurately and completely portray what it is the poster sought when they shot the video .

i get approached by persons seeking dog advice frequently , but i usually preface it by saying " this is what worked , or not , for me " .

in the end every individual is responsible for forging their relationship with their dog and the quality of that training reflects that partnership . in the end , you gotta put in the time !

i respect that everyone has different levels of confidence when it comes to handling and training dogs , and i know it takes a certain bit of courage when it comes to asking for help , both in person and the 'net , but i get a bit apprehensive when people think the advice alone will solve the problem . you've gotta receive the advice , process it , decide whether it can work for your situation , how you might be able to incorporate it , and then put it into practice and see if it can work for you .


back to yer coffee mike lol . . .

I love your ramblings Mike. Pretty heavy for a Sunday morning though. But I'm enjoying a cup of coffee so I'll play.

When it comes to "advice", I too have pondered something along the same lines a few times.

I think by nature people want a quick fix to problems they're having. Go to someone experienced and they should be able to provide it.

Much like going to a Doctor ourselves. We don't feel good or want the aches and pains to stop. The Dr. should quickly diagnose it and give us a cure.

When that cure consists of things people don't want to hear - change your diet (stop eating what you love), stop smoking (regardless of how badly you're addicted), get more exercise (regardless of how much you like the couch) or any number of other ingrained behaviors they are being told to start or stop, people don't want the "cure" anymore.

They turn around an rationalize why they do what they do in hopes of getting some agreement to continue doing it, instead of having to make the hard and sometimes complicated changes that are required.

It's easy to say "change your diet", but to truly describe what you need to eat to stop the pain, starts highlighting the elimination of what you have been eating, things you're used to, things you love, things you may have even believed were good for you because someone at some point said they were.

Sure, the doctor can give you a pill to stop that pain. You'll feel better for a bit and you don't have to work on the changes that the life altering advice would have entailed.

It always reminds me of the kids on Ritalin these days. To me these kids are like well-bred working dogs that people don't have the time for or don't understand the energy. They just want it to stop.

Sure, if you want a dog to stop biting you can easily put a muzzle on it but to truly stop that dog from "wanting" to bite takes work that requires some changes. It requires empathy and truly understanding what's going on for that dog.

When the cause of that bad behavior can be traced back to something "we" have or haven't done to unknowingly perpetuate it, the realization or "blame" of those faults seems to strike a cord with some people that they're just not willing to accept.

It couldn't possibly be them, they've done everything right (probably took advice from one of these book learned behaviorist - oops, one of my biases) and how dare we tell them any different.

If I say it won't work in my situation, I don't have to try it and I'm most certainly not the cause.

But when that cord has be struck, seed planted, what have you, the walls go up and there seems to be a need to fire off a diatribe of rationalization as they run off to the comfort of their uncomfortable ways.

Human ego, laziness, inability to adapt to change, inability to understand/accept/hear good advice even though they know there’s a problem.

Good advice falls on deaf ears.

Hee, hee. Two cups of coffee and just my Sunday morning rambling thoughts on your ramblings. Time to go enjoy the day.

On lazy Sunday afternoons like today, dogs sleeping, all the chores done, I often read through old posts, and am struck how differently some of the type of questions are dealt with now, compared to how they were when the board was in it's infancy, the word BAM! was used on those type of occasions when the nay sayers were doing the 'yes, but' dance with some of the more experienced members, whose patience was being sorely stretched!

Sometimes the posts become adversarial quickly, and one could anticipate the outcome; a handful of people had the manners to graciously accept the advice, freely given, and others got angry and dismissed the suggestions quite aggressively, at times though, the replies would be of a tone, that without inflection, could be construed as sarcastic, or belittling, but that is the risk you take when asking a lot of strangers their opinion or advice on a public forum.

I like to see ignorance exposed, and rigorously dealt with, especially when the animal is at risk, but then I worry about what happens to the dog after the poster has had his or her jowls oscillated. There is quite a responsibility involved with handing out solicited advice, and I am always relieved when Connie reports that she has followed up on a few of the more contentious subjects, and that there was a positive outcome.

On lazy Sunday afternoons like today, dogs sleeping, all the chores done, I often read through old posts, and am struck how differently some of the type of questions are dealt with now, compared to how they were when the board was in it's infancy, the word BAM! was used on those type of occasions when the nay sayers were doing the 'yes, but' dance with some of the more experienced members, whose patience was being sorely stretched!

Sometimes the posts become adversarial quickly, and one could anticipate the outcome; a handful of people had the manners to graciously accept the advice, freely given, and others got angry and dismissed the suggestions quite aggressively, at times though, the replies would be of a tone, that without inflection, could be construed as sarcastic, or belittling, but that is the risk you take when asking a lot of strangers their opinion or advice on a public forum.

I like to see ignorance exposed, and rigorously dealt with, especially when the animal is at risk, but then I worry about what happens to the dog after the poster has had his or her jowls oscillated. There is quite a responsibility involved with handing out solicited advice, and I am always relieved when Connie reports that she has followed up on a few of the more contentious subjects, and that there was a positive outcome.

It's hard, for sure.

Sometime all the O.P. wants is drama and attention. Sometimes it's simply advice shopping (nothing that involves work!).

Often it's a simple fix wanted, and when it turns out that no, there's actual training and consistency and maybe getting up an hour earlier needed, then suddenly we "don't understand .... it's not really THAT bad, and you people are weird ugly rude creeps anyway."

My own mantra ("help the dog, help the dog, help the dog") often powers my delete key, because Tracey is so right that I don't want to fuel anger that does nothing but make a dog's life miserable, or maybe more miserable.

Most of the time, it's pretty clear to the regulars here, many (or most) of whom are long experienced and also, unlike on so many boards, neither stuck in the yank-n-crank of the 70s nor saddled with a belief that everything can be fixed with a cookie.

So it can get a little old to explain from step one over and over and over, and then to be called rude because we care about the dog more than the human's sometimes amazingly oversensitive feelings.(JMO!)

Sometimes a thread like this makes me re-resolve to couch advice in gentle terms, to try to save the feelings of the poster, and to do whatever I need to do to help the dog.

There have been quite a few threads lately where either the great advice that was given was ignored, argued, or completly lost in extranous "stuff."

There have been a few times where Connie or I, as Mods, have been somewhat harsh with the poster. I would like everyone to understand that this is not how Connie or I would like to respond, most of the time. Precedeing our "harsh" post, there have probably been 10-15 emails or PMs back and forth between us discussing what is going on. When I post a hard ass comment, it's generally because someone is posting dangerous information, and innocent people reading the thread in the years to come could get hurt because of it.

Some people just like drama, and will throw stuff into a post about putting a dog down if it doesn't change, or personally attacking another poster on the board. In most cases, Connie and I try to change the tone around, and if we can't we will just lock the thread.

I think for the most part, people posting here asking for advice or information are honestly seeking help and accept what they have been given with good graces.

We have some great members here that have tons of experience. They freely give their time and experiences to people they will never meet. They don't deserve to be argued with, personally attacked, or completely ignored.

I hope that even if the original poster dismisses the information given, someone down the line will read it and it will help them.
I guess that's what keeps me posting....

And Mike, we LOVE your caffinated ramblings

"A part of the advice had to do with a visit or two to evaluate the dog, though not physically. I asked what occasioned the advice, and was told that evaluations took a bit of time. I asked what symptoms were expressed, and the answer was so vague I had trouble understanding her concerns. In the end, I declined. So I rejected advice. Upon reflection, I wonder if it had to do with a bias in re behaviorists."


Hee hee.



The dog needs therapy.

Huh? Normal, well-behaved, happy dog .... why?

Well, I can't tell you that until I do it.

But what makes you say this in the first place?

I can't explain that to a non-behaviorist. You idiot.

LOL, Good read thanks folks. It always amazes me how people can rationalize that it's never their fault for anything that happens in their life and with their dogs.

"Most of the time, it's pretty clear to the regulars here, many (or most) of whom are long experienced and also, unlike on so many boards, neither stuck in the yank-n-crank of the 70s nor saddled with a belief that everything can be fixed with a cookie."

Oh, I don't know. I think you can fix things with a cookie. OH! Wait! Connie's talking about dog behavior and training. Never mind.

But, seriously, it's important to remember that it is the dog that's important and that sometimes will mean stepping on an owner's toes a bit. But, it also means stopping (using that delete key) that first understandably sarcastic answer at times in the interest of hopefully helping a dog by getting the owner to at least consider the advice even if it wasn't what she wanted to hear.